Me too.

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Ginger:

This all comes down to the fact that if you read the barrage rules, the speed-rolling method is "recommended" in order to speed up play, but is not strictly enforced by the rules. So you can choose to roll to hit units under the template individually if you choose.

So this part of the rule:


Is separate to this part of the rule:





So the default is the first part, and then you can speed-roll if you want to speed up the rolling to-hit / allocating hits / making saves process if you want to... and it's at that point at which people start to differ on what grandularity of speed-rolling procedure should be used.

But the default does seem to say that if you roll a hit on a Grot unit at the back of a formation, then that Grot unit will be hit, not an Ork Boyz unit at the front of the formation.

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That's how I've always done it.

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it depends on which convention you're using Ginger. The recommended one says different units types have the same chances of getting hit as if you rolled individually, depending on how you interpret the term 'exact type'

of course once allocations have been made the speed rolling for saving is natural and obvious, the question here is speed rolling for hitting within the context of a barrage.

With normal shooting you roll a number of dice according to what you weapons stats are. You group all your to hit value into different sets of dice and roll each of this sets. you remove the misses and allocate the hits front to back.

For barrages, (like it or not i'm not all that keen mystel) the official rules are that you roll one dice for each unit under the template, a bit like with a deathwind missile launcher. Each hit can only be allocated to the unit it was rolled for. But the speed rolling recommendation for barrages allows you to at least group units together by some definition of type. IF you use 'exact' type then you get virtually the same effect as the official individual rolling method but usually faster.


like I say, it's probably best to tell your opponent how you intend to go about it and ask his permission first.

Alansa has hit the nail on the head by suggesting this should be part of the 5 min warm up

However, to your points, this is all read in the context of 1.9 covering the whole shooting procedure. Section 1.9.8 only describes how barrage weapons are aimed and fired and does not cover hit allocation or casualty removal (except by reference to speedrolling).

The 'first' quote only specifies rolling to hit. The 'second' quote refers to speedrolling for casualty removal (within the context of barrages). Sadly, neither sentences, nor the section on template use, specifies anything about where or when hits are actually allocated. These omissions are at the root of this debate IMHO.

indeed, others have argued that all hits of all types from all non-MW weapons are pooled, and then allocated front-to-back across the formation ignoring the template at that point. Strictly RAW this is actually correct, though not how many play. Note The last section on template placement infers (through the avoidance of 'sniping') that hits are somehow applied within the template, but gives no specifics. It is from here that I infer the allocation of hits, front-to-back within the template.

Alansa has hit the nail on the head by suggesting this should be part of the 5 min warm up

However, to your points, this is all read in the context of 1.9 covering the whole shooting procedure. Section 1.9.8 only describes how barrage weapons are aimed and fired and does not cover hit allocation or casualty removal (except by reference to speedrolling).

The 'first' quote only specifies rolling to hit. The 'second' quote refers to speedrolling for casualty removal (within the context of barrages). Sadly, neither sentences, nor the section on template use, specifies anything about where or when hits are actually allocated. These omissions are at the root of this debate IMHO.

indeed, others have argued that all hits of all types from all non-MW weapons are pooled, and then allocated front-to-back across the formation ignoring the template at that point. Strictly RAW this is actually correct, though not how many play. Note The last section on template placement infers (through the avoidance of 'sniping') that hits are somehow applied within the template, but gives no specifics. It is from here that I infer the allocation of hits, front-to-back within the template.

I somewhat disagree, though note there is considerable ambiguity around this point.

This quote:


To me, reads as telling you how to detirmine which units should be attacked, and also what dice rolls to use (Specifically you roll a dice for each individual unit individually).

What is not covered is whether those units you have individually rolled to hit are then allocated those hits which you have individually rolled against each unit, or whether you should then take all your hits and then allocate them front-to-back to the formation (And indeed, whether that front-to-back should happen only under the area affected by the template, or across the entire formation!).

I would argue that although it isn't categorically stated, it is implcit that you should make armour saves on the units you have individually rolled to hit.

Otherwise, it seems to me like the writer's gone to a lot of effort to stipulate several conditions and notations that are either nonsensical, or irrelevant.

-------- I'd rather an FAQ, instead of keeping it to the 5 minute warmup, as clearly it's being played both ways, albeit with an apparent bias towards one interpretation.



EDIT:

E&C you are a presumptuous numpty. Maybe it's just a badly-written rule!

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Interesting argumentation here. We play it like Alansa stated here. The ambuigity never occured to us. I would like to see a FAQ too on this one because the different approaches have very different outcomes in some cases.

I think it's pretty clear that the "roll to hit each unit" is a combined to-hit and allocation in one step. Roll to hit unit X; if the die roll succeeds, you hit unit X. Roll to hit unit Y; if you succeed, you hit unit Y. Repeat for "each unit" until there are no more.

How would you interpret that such that the to hit roll for unit X would or could be allocated to anything except unit X?

I think the crux of the question is what is meant by this

in the barrage rules?

What do the rules define as "type"?

Section 1.1 states this



Which uses both type and category to define INF/AV.

Then 1.1.3 introduces target type



Basically we have hit on another part of the rules were one term seems to mean many different things and can be read many ways.

I agree it doesn't make that much difference and probably should be agreed in the 5 min warm up without problems.

That said defining the term "type" as "unit" and "formation" are defined may be a good idea in the longer term.

Ok, I would suggest that section 1.9.8 Barrages is effectively a replacement for section 1.9.5 Roll to hit, in that it describes the barrage weapon 'to hit' mechanics rather than the mechanics of other weapons. What we are doing is determining the number of dice to use, and any relevant modifiers. This idea of adding the "barrage" sectiion is exactly the same as adding "Overwatch" or "Crossfire". So the phrase "Roll to hit all units under the template with the appropriate to hit values" means you do just that.

Once the hits have been determined, you then apply 1.9.6 Allocate Hits & Make Saving Throws. The only question not covered is whether the barrage hits should be allocated to those units under the template, though even that can be argued through the words "potential target" in that section.

I agree that A FAQ to cover this would indeed be welcome, but until then I guess we just cover it under in the 5 min warmup along with 'speedrolling'.

If you may pardon the pun, "not exactly".

Because you're skipping over the core part of the barrage rule (The bit where it says you should roll to hit each unit individually) and going straight to the optional recommendation to speed up play (The speed rolling bit).

If you take into account the bit about rolling to hit each unit individually, that gives some context to what "exactly the same type" in the optional part of the rule is supposed to mean in the next line, IMO.

I don't think semantics (In the most objective possible sense) about what "type" or "exactly" are supposed to mean is nessesary, as I think the context provides the intended meaning.

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In your opinion on reading the rules. As the term "type" is not defined others may read and interpret them differently, hence this debate.

Here is the section from the barrage rules again and I don't see the word individually.


The section in bold does not tel me to roll the dice one at a time for each unit, it just tells me to roll a dice for all units under the template. I never roll to hit "That grot", I roll to hit the x number of units that will use the AP column of the barrage table. Then hits are allocated to units that take AP fire front to back under the template.

As with normal fire. I could roll all my dice one at a time from my mechanized infantry company when I've declared that all my units will fire ap. However rolling 21 dice one at a time may get a little tedious for my opponent.

I do it like alansa described.
If it where by type (Infantry, Vehicle, etc) then the addition "exact" wouldn't be needed.

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