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Allocating Special Weapon Effects
Leave it as it states in the rules (Defender allocates). Some special effects can be lost as part of the game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it/KISS. 100%  100%  [ 22 ]
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Allocating Special Weapon Effects

 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:51 pm 
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BTW for what it's worth, I've discussed a promoted various fixes to this issue, but have done so for the benifit of those who think this is an issue.

Personally I don't care either way. I just figured that if some kind of fix was made for MW and that was neccessary, then it would be possible to fix these other types if it where deemed necessary

Is it neccessary to fix lance and other types?
Was it neccessary to mix MW?

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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Personally I really like Neal's "Gentleman's Agreement" solution, but I guess I'm in the minority.

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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Neal, can you put your proposed changes in as an alternate rule choice?  If it is highlighted and marked as such, I can't imagine it being confusing and it would give players multiple options.  Everybody wins.

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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:48 pm 
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All this wouldn't be a problem if you would shoot and allocate unit for unit than shoot with the whole formation and then allocate the resulting hits.

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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Dec. 16 2009, 16:17 )

Quote: (Jeridian @ Dec. 16 2009, 16:12 )

The Defender is under immense intimidation and pressure to allocate what the Attacker wants. It's simply 'Attacker Allocates By Proxy'.

WHAT?!  I have *never* seen that occur, not in friendly games nor in tournaments.

I've only experienced joking about "getting better aim" and such when there's a "bad" allocation for the Attacker.

In the one game where it mattered, I as the attacker showed the defending player how to minimize the special effects. Anyone who attempted to intimidate or pressure me into doing something that I'm well within my rights to do, for their advantage, would likely be met with a sarcastic "Good Game!" and an immediate packing up of my miniatures. Wouldn't be the first time. Competitiveness is one thing, WAAC is another.

I'll reiterate my revised suggestion for the Allocation rule, that might have been missed by some in the previous thread. Obviously, someone with a better understanding of the rules might make a more dynamic wording.

Add the following after the first sentence of 1.9.5.

"The player must decide in which order to fire his normal and specialist weapons. All weapons of a normal or specific specialty must be declared as a block of fire."

Add the following to the end of paragraph one in 1.9.6.
"Hits of different types are allocated in the order specified in 1.9.5"

An example,
A unit of Fire Warriors doubles forward and declares fire on a formation with disposable troops. The attacker declares "Normal then Disrupt" at the same time as he would declare AT/AP for any attached HammerHeads, and rolls all relevant attacks. When assigning the hits, the defender would be required to assign all the normal hits, front to back, then the Disrupt hits. There is no 'additional round' like MW, if the Fire Warriors did 4 normal, and 2 Disrupt, the first four would take normals, and the fifth and sixth would take Disrupt.

This allows the attacker to have a chance of his specialist attacks not being voided, but doesn't allow him to snipe out specific targets like an "Attacker Chooses" option would.

But it IMO beats the current situation where 4 IgCover, 3 Disrupt and 2 Normal hits get assigned by the defender onto the 4 units not in cover, the three disposable, and the 2 units actually in cover, neutralizing a lot of effects.

There's also the possibility (extensive testing would be needed, obviously), that the second round for MW wouldn't be needed either. It could (conceivably) be folded into the standard shooting system.

Anyways, that's why I voted for the middle option. Something like the above.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Choosing an order of fire would result in Disposable units not anymore positioned at the "front" of a formation but untypicaly scattered throughout the formation in order to attempt to catch at least some possible special hits.

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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:30 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 16 2009, 21:13 )

Choosing an order of fire would result in Disposable units not anymore positioned at the "front" of a formation but untypicaly scattered throughout the formation in order to attempt to catch at least some possible special hits.

You'ld see that as a bad thing? Personally, I'd see it as a more reasonable approach.

The concept of firing to clear the ablative chaff before firing with more specialized weapons shouldn't be as problematic as it is now.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:45 am 
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couldn't you adopt morgan's rule for all rolls. then allocate all hits and apply special effects as they become necessary.
meaning if an inf unit is out in the open then apply a regular AP hit, if it's in cover apply an ignore cover hit. if something falls into more then one category we could make a list of what is least to most important (kind of like poker: one pair, two pair, three of a kind, etc.). so if you had terminators in cover you would apply the TK hit over the ignore cover hit for example


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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:23 am 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 17 2009, 06:30 )

The concept of firing to clear the ablative chaff before firing with more specialized weapons shouldn't be as problematic as it is now.

but they all fire at the same time don't they?

What is the time frame of a typical epic shooting phase?

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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:12 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 17 2009, 01:23 )

Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 17 2009, 06:30 )

The concept of firing to clear the ablative chaff before firing with more specialized weapons shouldn't be as problematic as it is now.

but they all fire at the same time don't they?

What is the time frame of a typical epic shooting phase?

The amount of time is apparently intentionally flexible. But if the amount of time in a turn is sufficient for a formation to participate in an assault, the ability to fire certain weapon systems before others, should not tax the limits of squad communications.

Heck, the Tau and Eldar can do it across three formations (and retain allows any army to do it over two), I don't see how a halfway decent platoon leader couldn't have at least similar controls over those under his command.

Remember, this is a game where a single formation can easily participate in 3-4 engagements in a turn, or can move the entire length of the table (Marched Storm Serpent + Marched JetBikes), or where the embarkation/debarkation of troops doesn't hinder the speed of transports. There's a lot of flexibility built into the current time frame. "You lot with the missile launchers, don't fire until after the flamers." isn't a stretch IMO.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:10 am 
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agreed. although i know this rule will never be changed, if we are arguing that the change would allow for equally "gamey" situations to occur, it's better to have one that is more realistic.


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 Post subject: Allocating Special Weapon Effects
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:27 pm 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 16 2009, 22:30 )

Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 16 2009, 21:13 )

Choosing an order of fire would result in Disposable units not anymore positioned at the "front" of a formation but untypicaly scattered throughout the formation in order to attempt to catch at least some possible special hits.

You'ld see that as a bad thing? Personally, I'd see it as a more reasonable approach.

The concept of firing to clear the ablative chaff before firing with more specialized weapons shouldn't be as problematic as it is now.

Morgan Vening

It is actually counter-fluff whatis known by Grotz and Orks. Orks prod Grotz in front of them to clear mine fields and to soak up damage which otherwise would hit the Orks.
Having Grotz between proper Orkz? Never  :laugh:

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