General thoughts:


It was a really fun game. I got really lucky in a few aspects of the game (Avernus Ultra dominating a whole Fire Warrior formation with a few lucky shots on turn 1 was notable, as was winning the strategy roll against the odds for the first three turns!), and I think I deployed better than Ryan too.

I think that the game game's result would likely have been very different if I hadn't have won the first three Strategy rolls, as with the superior initative each turn I was able to act to stymie Tau attacks before they developed, and then roll over the opposition with superior numbers.

Still, the game wasn't a complete walk-over, and the 3-1 victory could easily have been changed even on the last turn if Ryan's attentions had managed to bring down the troublesome Baneblade.

The slight paucity of terrain hurt the Tau more than it did the Steel Legion, I think, as units like Broadsides and Crisis suits typically rely on hopping from terrain-to-terrain during games, which was a bit more difficult in this game.


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The Game Plan:

I think my plan of 'Take out the Recon and Fire Warrior formations ASAP' was the right course to persue, as together they formed the main Markerlight-carrying threats in the Tau army.

With his Markerlight formations spending much of the game broken or under threat, I was able to keep the Tau on the back foot, as they largely fought bushfire actions, instead of persuing a more aggressive battle strategy.

I might even go so far as to say that Avernus Ultra's lucky near-destruction of a Fire Warrior formation on turn 1 won me the game, as it crippled Ryan's nearside flank, which hindered his advance elsewhere as he had to turn to contest my unexpected nearside advance.


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Thoughts about the list itself:


Ryan and I agreed that without an Initative rating of 1+, or a price drop, Crisis Suit formations don't look worth taking without a Supreme Commander. With 250pts for just 4 units, you expect something special. So I'm likely not to see more than 1 formation of Crisis Suits in Ryan's armies unless something changes (I'd prefer to see the Initiative change, as otherwise you have an odd price dichotomy involving formation Upgrades costing the same, but adopting Initiative 1+ 'for free' if added to a Supreme Commander's formation instead of a 'normal' formation).

I can't see Pathfinders as being useful without the Sniper rule on their Rail Rifles, and I think Ryan agreed as he didn't take any!

Despite recent concerns about the AX-1-0s, as usual they performed admirably in this game, although my Thunderbolts admittedly were neutralised early on leaving me with only passive AA.

Everything else felt fine to me for the moment.

After the game we discussed Orcas, which Ryan feels aren't useful, but which I feel would work well with Ryan's Markerlight-heavy force (A Double move from a Recon formation, followed by a Land/ClaimCrossfire/ClaimMarkerlight/ShootTarget action from some airborne Fire Warriors or Broadsides would wreak havoc on near anything!).

I realised that Broadside formations should probably be allowed to take the Broadsides upgrade, and Pathfinders should be allowed to take the Pathfinders upgrade!



I'm sure Ryan will be along to make some comments at some point. We'll try to get more games in soon, and pit Ryan's Tau against multiple opponents and armies, and probably loan out his Tau to other players to use too.

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Just to be sure...with "Two in his half" you mean Take and Hold?

Yeah probably, I always forget what they're called.  

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Most of what I would say about the list Ben has already said. Crisis suits really need to be initiative 1. I would like to also have stealth suits at initiative 1 as well. Broadsides should stay at initiative 2. Pathfinders I would like to see have sniper. The list currently has no units with that ability. It also makes them more likely to appear as a formation in their own right not just an add on to FW's.

Hammerheads with their stat decreases are IMHO too expensive.

FW's on foot are too expensive compared to Mech FW's. You get one less unit for the same price and less maneuverability.

But most of the adjustments I would like to see made are minor, in the manner of 25 points here and there. All in all the list feels fairly well balanced.

It's interesting that when they had it, I never once used it.  I think the strength of PFs is that they bring FWs a co-ord opportunity and a markerlight plus extra disrupt. They are pretty good without sniper IMO.


I agree they perform admirably if they are allowed to.... When more AA assets are on board they get hurt ... a lot. Can you please try it in your next game?


Actually I agree here. I won't be fielding any more than 1 myself due to this.


I would seriously argue against this. Especially the broadsides. They'd become the Infantry version of a Leman Russ company for starters and secondly a little too large to easily manouevre around the field - there's only so many you could fit in a building etc. Try playing them with a bit more scenery and put them in cover on OW in garrison. They dig in better than an Alabama tick. (Thanks Gov Ventura!). They're pretty hard to dislodge. If anything I would add gun drones to them if we had to add anything - but that's doubtful.

Pathfinders, well I just don't see huge formations of them being such a great asset in a game personally, as they work so much better as a small upgrade or a fill-a-points-gap stand alone formation.


I agree. I'm still not sure why they were adjusted to 225. Honda, can you fill us in?

I don't tend to take much more AA than I took in this game, but I'll see about taking more AA in further games...


Fair enough, that makes sense to me. Consider that thought dropped.

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Great report fellas.

I'll chip in and add my voice for a 1+ activation on Crisis Suits (and Broasides/Stealth suits). They are the elite of the Tau infantry and that should be reflected in their stats somehow.


Agreed. I just can't see myself ever taking a Firewarrior formation on foot.

Pathfinders with Sniper is interesting. It would be an added bonus for me though as I mainly use them as Dobbsy said, to get ML's and Coordinated Fire on my Firewarriors (and my BTS). Having Sniper would make them more appealing in their own right for sure. I can just see them Doubling into the enemies rear to kill a Supreme Commander and cut the head off the snake.

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RE: Suit Initiative.
I was due to play on Monday, but that fell through. So I've got no real testing to back up my feelings. It's the Stealth that I have the biggest problem with. At least with the Crisis and Broadsides, you can kind of minimise things. But with a 6 unit, teleporting formation, with a 15cm range, and a Strategy Rating of 3, against all but Necron and IG you've got a best 50/50 to win Init. Elsewise they can be pounced fairly easily. And even if you do get to use them before they're unmolested, you've still got a ~67% chance of receiving a teleport BM and having a 3+ activation. The only Teleporting formations without a 1+ Init I could find are Alaitoc Pathfinders, Plague Zombies and Lictors. I probably wouldn't be so wary if they were purchasable as a 4-6 man unit like Crisis (which ups it to a 50% chance, and isn't that big an investment if it fails), but increases popcorniness.

RE: Foot Fire Warriors.
The only reason for the inclusion of these in my Monday army was because that opponent tends to play 3 Terminator Squads. That would allow the FW's to garrison the Blitz on Overwatch, giving me the opportunity to stem the all but guaranteed first turn BlitzKrieg. But against any other opponent, in any other circumstance, they're just too expensive compared to the mechanized. If I didn't have so many Suits, I would have gone mechanised, and started embarked, taking the FF's.

RE: Pathfinders.
Maybe if the Formation were able to purchase Sniper? Or got it 'Free' (Like Ork Warbike Outriders). Would allow the attached PathFinders to do the 'traditional' role, while making the formation fill a different role rather than just a stripped down FW+PF formation. But I'd prefer them just have it base.

As said at the top, this is all unplaytested opinion as that game got cancelled, and I'm likely unable to report a game before the deadline.

Morgan Vening

I'm free for a game monday if you like, Morgan.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I mean Monday past. Get every second Monday free, except for weirdness (like MCup on my next night off).

Is long hours, but thats a load better than actually having to work.

Morgan Vening

First off, great report and very insightful. My game this past week got rained out (i.e. big storm), but is rescheduled for next week...plus another person is jumping on the Epic bandwagon, so Woot!

Second a general statement on the comments: I am not against looking at the issues brought up and evaluating the current decisions. However it is my job to push back on demands and see them justified. So when I ask the following questions, its not to be obstinate, but to add the creative tension that produces a solid final product.

1. Crisis at +1: In concept I am not against this, but I would like to hear more on "why" besides, "I think" or "I fee". There's no disagreement that Crisis are the best, the counter point or push is from a balance perspective, why do they require +1 Init? Also, "they're not worth there cost" is similar to "I think".

2. Pathfinders and Snipers: I am in favor of a similar upgrade ala SM Scouts and snipers. I am not leaning towards giving every unit Sniper. I see their role as finders and coordinators, not necessarily functional assassins. A coordinated assault by Stealth and PF's could produce a similar effect as Onyx's "cutting the head off the snake".

3. Broadsides: I had drones on them and that was requested to be taken off. I do not think that the Broadsides upgrade is appropriate and I see that we all seem to be in agreement on that.

4. Foot FWs: Costs for both formations were simplified from a logistics perspective, but I am keeping an eye on this. I do hear the 'exact' same comment being made by everyone, but I also want more evidence. One of synergies that was mentioned is FWs in an Orca. The carry capacity of the Orca was bumped a bit to facilitate the carrying of a Crisis and a FW cadre, to provide "opportunities". That may not be enough, but I am going to hold on this one for a little bit.

5. RE: Hammerheads effectiveness/costs: Did the HHs ever take advantage of ML'd targets?

From a testing perspective, we're off to a really good start. I'm going to hold on making any changes for the 10/31/09 deadline. What I will do is bump up the 11/30/09 deadline a week to 10 days to get that round of edits/changes in for the final burst.

I am out of town this weekend (business), so will be back in touch on Monday.

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Honda

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- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

As I stated, it simply feels as if there are better things to spend your 250 points on if a Crisis formation is 4 units strong and initiative 2+. A Fire Warrior formation in Devilfishes for example is cheaper, just as fast, has 9 units instead of 4, and is a specialised AP formation instead of a generalist formation like the Crisis formation.

I feel that without the reliability of Initiative 1+ (including the enhanced ability to conduct 'retain to shoot once another formation has markerlit the enemy') Crisis formations just aren't worth taking, as they are best employed when retaining off the back of another formation's action.

The first thing I do when I see a Crisis formation is put a single BM on them. With initiative 2+, that means they'll activate on a 3+, and retain on a 4+. Not great for a 250pt 'elite' formation.


I feel that they have no unique role of their own without Sniper.

I am also highly against them gaining Sniper only as an upgrade option as:

1 - That would require people to cut up or convert their (often already painted) Pathfinder bases.

2 - The Upgrade list is already very long, and need not be longer.

And of course, one of the Pathfinder's weapons (the 'Rail Rifle') is effectively a Sniper weapon in Warhammer 40,000 / the background.


No, I shot the Markerlights too much.
Once, when they did 2DC of damage to the Baneblade. The rest of the time the nearby Skyray was either surpressed or broken.

Personally I think Hammerheads are probably fine as they are, certainly they're not a concern of mine as much as Crisis formations or on-foot Fire Warriors.



*nod*

That gives time for the people who've had games fall through to get in one or two games.



Also if I may make a comment on this:


I have taken flak in the past for my writing style not making it plain that my personal opinions are not imperical facts, so I am careful to couch pretty much everything I say on list balance in terms like that now.  

Ultimately we cannot but relate opinions; even hard 'facts' can be twisted by the unworthy to present an untrue picture of the situation.

As an army list developer, if in doubt about a change I will go with what the majority of people are telling me is needed, as although individuals can have their personal hobby horses (and I surely do myself!) the community at large will tend to level out such things.

For the people, by the people.  

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Originally I believe PF lost sniper as they were then superior to firewarriors.

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Aye I remember those days.  

However, surely something could be done with points costs, or the to-hit stat of the Rail Rifle, to balance the formation?

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I really can't see any reason at all why Crisis Suits aren't all 1+ initiative. They are the elite of the elite, trained to react "on the bounce" to Crises.

Honda's argument about their low Initiative value in 40k holds no water, since the two Initiative stats have literally nothing in common. Both use the same word for entirely different concepts.

40k Initiative represents how quickly a unit can react in close combat. This is represented in Epic by the reduced CC stat (on a direct translation Crisis Suits should really have at least CC 5+).

Epic Initiative represents how trained a formation is, how well it reacts to orders and how resistant it is to adverse psychology. Crisis Suits are, to me at least, the epitome of a unit type that deserves the highest initiative around.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread