Most probably quite right. So let's do just that.

I'll just get a mug o'java and settle in.

Hena ~ Open source is quite something else. It's not two month's wages and five month's painting to see your army smashed because someone had a different idea of what's DWWFY...

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

So, let's make an example then. Space Marines no less!

Detachments:
Assault (4) and Thunderhawk - Commander, Dreadnought, Assault (4)
Devastator (4) and transport - Commander, Razorbacks, Dreadnought, Hunter, Land Raider
Tactical (6) and transport - Commander, Dreadnought, Razorbacks, Hunter, Vindicator

Here you have what type of force from the beginning. Take, destroy or garrison.
The rest of the so called detachments are support for these three basic types of operations.

If we then take a look at Black Templar, the close n'personal flavoured force it could have the following restrictions:
No devestators or whirlwinds or such with AP weapons. Predator Annihilator and Razorback w/twin lascannon etc is ok. "It's no fun being a tin opener up close."

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

So you basically take the standard E:A Marine list and declare several selections to be 1+?

Quick notes on the design philosophy.  Back in the early days, JJ's intent was to have tons of army lists in the manner of DBA and such.

Each faction or race would have a "core" list that was relatively flexible as its first release.  The "core" has a minor focus/flavor based on its background but would also be flexible enough to allow alternate force orgs and accommodate a variety of strategies.

So-called "variant" lists would build from that relatively balanced core.  They could be more focused and flavorful, adding new units and formations as well as accompanying restrictions, with the goal of achieving a defined feel.

We've largely stuck with this not because "back in the dark ages Jervis said... and ever shall it remain so"  but because it's worked very well as a design concept.  Even though we don't have a hundred workable lists, there are several very successful variant lists that have built off the more flexible core lists.  Organizing a fan group is about like herding cats and I think that those achievements are notable in such an environment.

===

As far as the mandatory block idea, I feel like I'm missing something.  A lot of the lists do have substantial "core" restrictions.  Beyond the hard list restrictions, there are requirements from a practical strategic perspective that add soft restrictions - activation count, desirability of AA cover, deepstrike capability/defense, total model count, etc..  Those keep a lid on many of the more extreme builds without adding a mandatory block of troops.

The question of "all-inclusive" lists versus more focused or specialized lists is long-standing, but this is the first time I can recall anyone arguing for even more restrictive lists than the current design concept.  I'm with Hena in that I don't understand the intent of this suggestion, what would be gained.

The ease-of-balance concept I can understand, but the balancing on the core lists has been done (with a few minor points that will remain a point of eternal debate regardless of any changes).  Restricting the core lists retroactively would serve no purpose in that regard and, again, we do encourage firm restrictions on new variants for that reason.

Maybe development of new "core" lists like Nids and Tau could stand more focus.  However, the core lists have another role in addition to being just a workable army list.  They serve as a template for future variants.  In that capacity they need to have the basic building blocks of at least most of the foreseeable variants.  They set the standard for unit stats, formation sizes and broad interactions across the rules and with other armies.  The first list has to be a bit more broad to achieve all those goals.

With respect to a distinct feel for the variants, the NetERC has consistently pushed very hard for firm restrictions that provide a definite flavor to the army list.  Black Templars must have Crusader formations.  White Scars must be fast.  Salamanders have few options for fast attack.  In addition to those hard restrictions, the variant lists have soft restrictions as well by including "premium" formations and options that work especially well when used in the intended style.  A BT list without Neophytes is omitting a very valuable tool.  Likewise for a White Scars list without bikes or a Salamanders list that doesn't make use of their larger, tougher formation options.  The restricted variants are usually quite successful at creating army flavor.


If the question is startup and introducing new/old players, there are dozens of "how to get started" threads on here and on the SG boards (they will be available again once the transition is over), as well as some scattered around Warseer, BoLS, and so on.  There are suggestions for starting armies based on general style and low monetary cost.  There was a thread that had people's suggestions on a starting block of ~1500 points and add-on blocks of ~1000 points each.

I would totally support an effort to do data mining on the boards and consolidate and organize various suggestions into a single, pinned thread.  Even better, it could be a consolidated doc that could be posted on the net and linked to or emailed.

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Neal

Thanks for that input Neal. "...tons of army lists in the manner of DBA and such..." explains heaps.
Not the least that that's an impossible vision. DBA has five (?whatever?) types of units. And very strict effects between them. He shouldn't have gone for Epic Armageddon, he should've gone for Epic~HOTF...

Each faction or race would have a "core" list that was relatively flexible as its first release.  The "core" has a minor focus/flavor based on its background but would also be flexible enough to allow alternate force orgs and accommodate a variety of strategies.

So-called "variant" lists would build from that relatively balanced core.  They could be more focused and flavorful, adding new units and formations as well as accompanying restrictions, with the goal of achieving a defined feel.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Well i susually build my Space Marien army around one Battle Company and then add Predators, Thunderhawks, more Infantry, etc...

BTW: That there are no all-inculsive list is a LIE.
We have Space Marines, Orks, Imperial Guard and Eldar in the books and Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Cultists as PDF.
Yes these armies are labeld as a special force or a special modus operandi butin essence they are so broad in their design that they are practically all-inclusive armylists.

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Quite right they are BL. And that mix up is unfortunate.
(But no Leviathan with guards...)

All-inclusive is fine, as long as that's not everything!
And it is with both guards and marines. Not so with eldar thou.
And orks aren't even close to, even if they are all-inclusive, because they are built from bigger blocks and no support formations at all.

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Well...i tried
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 73;t=14027

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

And many good points made there.

If I step back a little.

A generic list for Space Marine, Ultre Marina Codicius, from where you can draw specialist lists (Black Templar, Blood Angels etc). Or perhaps better - Adeptus Astartes Codex.
Along the same vein Adeptus Militaris Codex for the basic Imperial Guard organisation.
Yes, it's from netEpic. But perhaps it's not such a bad idea. Not to use anything from that (insert whatever) game, but because there's need of stability and simplicity.

Ie what troops are there, in what way are they accessible?
And then individual lists, in what way will I change the two above?

(Hey, I couldn't even find the netEpic's rules when over in that section! How's that for user friendly?

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

It's only the light (lite) version. The fuller version is a bigger file so wont fit without messing around with files and stuff, hey my dinners ready. We keep it secret to keep out riff raff.   (That was a joke, well almost)

Sorry I haven't been contributing but I have been following this thread. I just don't have the experiance, yet to contribute properly.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Ah! Well thought out! Almost invisible.  

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I can only speak from Eldar perspective here.  The concept of having some kind of generic or standard list may work for some armies, but for Eldar it's unnecessary in my view, as every Eldar army is either from a Craftworld, or is a Harlequins, Excodite or Pirate Force.

From the point of view of Craftworld armies, every Craftworld is different, so there is no such thing as a standardised Eldar army.  Eldar armies have always had features of their own Craftworlds, so I don't see how creating a standardised Eldar army is possible.  Yes, GW have sort of done this in WH40k, but I don't agree that armies from that codex are non-Craftworld armies either, as the selection of units will bias such armies towards one Craftworld or another.

If there are players out there who want to field a different style of Eldar list, then I feel that the best solution would be to just write one, and then give turn it into a Craftworld.

In my opinion, there is no way of avoiding the fact that every Craftworld is different.

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Most of these specialty lists are in name only. You could plop Tallarn onto the steel legion list and call it a day.


I think most of the building blocks are there to make your list specialty or quite the opposite. Vanilla.

At the risk of having the EXACT same discussion as the one in which you posted many, many, many times Irisado, I will say it one last time.

And I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I don't understand why can't people wrap their head around this concept.

The Eldar Craftworlds that are considered "the Big 5" are exceptions to the way a normal Craftworld is organized militarily. Similarly the way that the variant Marine Chapters like Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves etc are the exception to the Codex Marine armies.

One by one lets refresh people's memory on why the Craftworlds are different and why most are the same.

1. Ulthwe: It lies in close proximity to the Eye of Terror. This has augmented and exaggerated the psychic powers of their citizens. Because of this there are more Eldar psychers on Ulthwe than there are on any other craftworld. Being that the path of the psycher is the longest and most dangerous it has left fewer Eldar there to tread the Path of the Warrior. This leaves Ulthwe to rely more heavily on its Guardian militias creating a standing force of Guardians.

This= more psychers, fewer Aspect Warriors, Highly trained Guardians.

2. Iyanden: Gobbled up by Hive Fleet Leviathan (or was it Kraaken?) It was once one of the most populated and largest Craftworlds in the universe, now it's on a steady decline to annihilation. Because of this the Eldar must rely on their fallen warriors to help them survive for as long as they can.

This= fewer living troops, more Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

3. Alaitoc: A puritanical Craftworld (the bible thumpers of the Eldar!) they are strict in the application of the Eldar paths. This leads many Eldar to the Path of the Outcast. Either kicked off the Craftworld for some small infraction by their masters or of their own volition they leave the Craftworlds and explore the galaxy by becoming Rangers. Still the Eldar of Alaitoc remain loyal to their Craftworld and will return in its time of need.

This= More Rangers (note this is the closest of the variant Craftworlds to follow a military structure similar to the majority of other Eldar Craftworlds)

4. Biel-Tan: The most warlike of all the Eldar Craftworlds. They believe that the Eldar Empire is on the rise again. Everything this Craftworld does or believes is reflected in this concept. In fact the symbol for Biel-Tan means "Rebirth of Ancient Days." They feel that if there is to be a new Eldar Empire then it will be carved out in blood. For this reason the Eldar of Biel-Tan put more importance on the Path of the Warrior. It is the first and most important path an Eldar can take. Because of the amount of Aspect Warriors on Biel-Tan the Court of the Young King there is more powerful than on other Craftworlds ranking them equal to or even more important than the ruling Council of Seers.

This= More Aspect Warriors, a lot more. Fewer reliance on Guardians. More Exarchs and a prominent CotYK that goes to war with it's armies regularly.

5. Saim-Hann: The most barbaric of the Craftworlds. It's ruled over by a pseudo-feudal class known as the Wild Rider Kindreds. These Eldar hold honor in a higher regard than their other Craftworld kin. The Saim-Hann often fight honor duels with each other in hand to hand combat. That is why the Eldar of this Craftworld prefer to go to war mounted on jetbikes, so that they can get in close combat with their enemies. An interesting note here is that the Saim-Hann's ruling council is made up of a Wild Rider Chief and has nothing to do with what path of the Eldar he or she is on at the moment. In fact the Eldar of Saim-Hann consider the path secondary to that of their loyalty to the Kindred group.

This= More Eldar on jet-bikes of course!  


** Having gone over the divergent Eldar Craftworlds it's relatively easy to go over a "normal" Craftworld, but for some reason there is more confusion over this than any of the other Craftworlds.

The first thing that you have to keep in mind is that the Eldar are a dying race. Through decadence and depravity they have hurt their military might in two major ways.

#1 Fewer troops (this one is obvious)
#2 Having to adopt the Path of the Eldar

Now some people may believe that the Path of the Eldar only concerns militar pursuits, but this isn't true. The Eldar Path includes everything from artisans, poets, musicians, finger painters, chefs etc etc.

This is a necessary way of life for them. If they were to loose themselves on any one particular path, warrior for instance, then the entire Craftworld would fall. They need this path to keep their minds focused and uncorrupted by the lure of their own dark, wanton desires.

Because of this when the Eldar go to war the majority of its citizens are on another path at the time. Still they can lay down their previous lives and take up the armor of a Guardian soldier in the Craftworld's militia.

A few Eldar are on the path of the warrior when the Eldar go to way and they are used in the army as elite troops, helping bolster the attack of Guardians and Eldar armor. Sadly there is too few Eldar on the path of the warrior at one time to employ to the field by themselves on all but the smallest of missions (think mini 40K small, not EA small).

One Aspect group though is very prominent on all but the most remote and backwards of Craftworlds. That Aspect is the Dire Avenger. They are a godsend to the Eldar Guardians in that there is enough of them to help out in substantial numbers. Still they are nowhere near as numerous as Guardians.

I hope this helps with some of the misconceptions about the Eldar and their military orginizations. If it came across as condescending it wasn't my intention. I only wanted to illustrate why using variant army lists as representative of the Eldar Craftworld armies as a whole doesn't fly with the background.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ