Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Stubborn
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
So I've been pondering the issue of excessive Fearless units in the Chaos Lists. For the Emperor's Children, I'm leaving them as Fearless, since that's a focus of the list.

For the Death Guard I've given them Stubborn, and the name chosen to fit with any other lists that have sort-of-but-not-quite-Fearless units (the Dark Angels come to mind).

I've posted this as a separate topic because there are a number of lists that could benefit from a Fearless compromise.

So here it is.

Stubborn
All units that are Stubborn may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against hackdown hits due to losing close combat or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. (Note that Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they are within 15cm of enemy at the end of a Withdrawal move)
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA
I like it.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
NOVAGUARD
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:37 pm
Posts: 406
i like it.. would it be worth adding something to stop it attempting fearless charges? eg, must withdraw as normal?

picky i know but worth thinking of

_________________
Legio Nova guard: Finished
legio Storm lords: built
legio warp runners: un built
skitari: built
Eldar: in boxes
Orks: built, gargants painted
Ultra marines: 5 companies
Thousand sones: 5 companies (unpainted)
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

(NOVAGUARD @ Apr. 09 2008,16:46)
QUOTE
would it be worth adding something to stop it attempting fearless charges? eg, must withdraw as normal?

I don't quite understand... the rule says they must withdraw as normal, doesn't it?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
NOVAGUARD
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:37 pm
Posts: 406
gah! my bad...  :blush:  i was thinking of the movement in the end phase. dont normal units have to end further away than when they started from the enemy if they move?

_________________
Legio Nova guard: Finished
legio Storm lords: built
legio warp runners: un built
skitari: built
Eldar: in boxes
Orks: built, gargants painted
Ultra marines: 5 companies
Thousand sones: 5 companies (unpainted)
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
nealhunt
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:08 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

(Lord Inquisitor @ Apr. 09 2008,21:08)
QUOTE
Stubborn
All units that are Stubborn may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against hackdown hits due to losing close combat or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. (Note that Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they are within 15cm of enemy at the end of a Withdrawal move)

I think that's a nice compromise.  You need to clean up the language a bit to comply with the actual rulebook terminology.  Also, does the "due to losing close combat" apply to normal resolution hackdowns only or to the total destruction for losing while broken as well?  Assuming the broken formations which lose an assault are hacked down as normal...

Stubborn
All units that are Stubborn may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against additional hits which do not allow saving throws (sometimes called "hackdown hits") due to losing an assault or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they lose an assault while the formation is broken (1.12.8) or end a Withdrawal move within 15cm of enemy (1.13.3).

_________________
Neal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
Much better. Yes, that's exactly what I intended. I'll just paste that into the list, methinks.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I like it too.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Cool idea :)
Perhabs i will use this instead of Fearless for Deathwing and Ravenwing units in my Dark Angels armylist.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Pulsar
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:41 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 726
Location: London
good idea!!

sorry to talk about another list but i've been trying to think of a way to get the fact that Black Templars are fearless in combat (in 40k) into the epic list(if the rule should at all) would this work?

hmmmmmm playtesting!!!

_________________
"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
scarik
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:16 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Boston, MA
Perhabs i will use this instead of Fearless for Deathwing and Ravenwing units in my Dark Angels armylist.


BL, isn't the Ravenwing explicitly not stubborn. I'm pretty sure they have always used basic Marine rules.

As for the rule itself I think it's a good middle ground, but really should be used for all Cult Marines. Let Chosen stay Fearless, but not everybody.

And just give Chaos Marines And They Shall Know No Fear already...




_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

(BlackLegion @ Apr. 09 2008,19:17)
QUOTE
Cool idea :)
Perhabs i will use this instead of Fearless for Deathwing and Ravenwing units in my Dark Angels armylist.

I don't know about the Ravenwing, because hasn't the current codex done an about-turn and made them Fearless? Anyway, the Deathwing really should be full-blown Fearless. But you could make it an army-wide rule... ?It would require a scarey amount of playtesting, but it would make the Dark Angels rather different.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
pixelgeek
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:15 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

(Lord Inquisitor @ Apr. 09 2008,13:08)
QUOTE
So I've been pondering the issue of excessive Fearless units in the Chaos Lists.

Aside from people complaining about the number of Fearless units in the list is there any qualitative proof that it is problematic?

Without that there isn't a reason to start changing units.

I suspect that the issue is more structural (in terms of the ?access to these units) and not a problem with individual units




_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
I thinkt he biggest 'problem' is for other legions. However I reckon its fixed by having the cult marines and 'generic' legionairs (well appart from thousand sons).

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
I'm not planning to change anything like that in the BL list, but this is very much of a background and feel issue.

Firstly, four Fearless cult lists are going to be very similar, and a general complaint has been that all-Fearless is somewhat boring. A whole army that can fundamentally ignore a basic rules mechanic (i.e. being broken in combat or suffering BM when broken = bad thing) means a certain degree of tactical depth is lost to the game.

Secondly, from a background perspective, while Slaanesh has always been fearless to some degree and the automata of the Thousand Sons also really ought to be implacable, the Death Guard and the World Eaters don't really have any intrinsic claim beyond just being "nutters".

The net effect is an army that is resistant to the damaging effects of BM but not able to ignore it altogether like Fearless troops.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 2
  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net