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Stubborn
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 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:08 pm 
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So I've been pondering the issue of excessive Fearless units in the Chaos Lists. For the Emperor's Children, I'm leaving them as Fearless, since that's a focus of the list.

For the Death Guard I've given them Stubborn, and the name chosen to fit with any other lists that have sort-of-but-not-quite-Fearless units (the Dark Angels come to mind).

I've posted this as a separate topic because there are a number of lists that could benefit from a Fearless compromise.

So here it is.

Stubborn
All units that are Stubborn may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against hackdown hits due to losing close combat or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. (Note that Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they are within 15cm of enemy at the end of a Withdrawal move)
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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:31 pm 
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I like it.

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NOVAGUARD
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:46 pm 
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i like it.. would it be worth adding something to stop it attempting fearless charges? eg, must withdraw as normal?

picky i know but worth thinking of

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:50 pm 
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(NOVAGUARD @ Apr. 09 2008,16:46)
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would it be worth adding something to stop it attempting fearless charges? eg, must withdraw as normal?

I don't quite understand... the rule says they must withdraw as normal, doesn't it?
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NOVAGUARD
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:02 pm 
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gah! my bad...  :blush:  i was thinking of the movement in the end phase. dont normal units have to end further away than when they started from the enemy if they move?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:08 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Apr. 09 2008,21:08)
QUOTE
Stubborn
All units that are Stubborn may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against hackdown hits due to losing close combat or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. (Note that Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they are within 15cm of enemy at the end of a Withdrawal move)

I think that's a nice compromise.  You need to clean up the language a bit to comply with the actual rulebook terminology.  Also, does the "due to losing close combat" apply to normal resolution hackdowns only or to the total destruction for losing while broken as well?  Assuming the broken formations which lose an assault are hacked down as normal...

Stubborn
All units that are Stubborn may make their normal armour saves (including any re-rolls that may apply) against additional hits which do not allow saving throws (sometimes called "hackdown hits") due to losing an assault or hits caused by suffering Blast Markers when broken. Stubborn units are still destroyed outright if they lose an assault while the formation is broken (1.12.8) or end a Withdrawal move within 15cm of enemy (1.13.3).

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Much better. Yes, that's exactly what I intended. I'll just paste that into the list, methinks.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:38 pm 
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I like it too.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:17 am 
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Cool idea :)
Perhabs i will use this instead of Fearless for Deathwing and Ravenwing units in my Dark Angels armylist.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:41 am 
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good idea!!

sorry to talk about another list but i've been trying to think of a way to get the fact that Black Templars are fearless in combat (in 40k) into the epic list(if the rule should at all) would this work?

hmmmmmm playtesting!!!

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scarik
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Perhabs i will use this instead of Fearless for Deathwing and Ravenwing units in my Dark Angels armylist.


BL, isn't the Ravenwing explicitly not stubborn. I'm pretty sure they have always used basic Marine rules.

As for the rule itself I think it's a good middle ground, but really should be used for all Cult Marines. Let Chosen stay Fearless, but not everybody.

And just give Chaos Marines And They Shall Know No Fear already...




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:47 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 09 2008,19:17)
QUOTE
Cool idea :)
Perhabs i will use this instead of Fearless for Deathwing and Ravenwing units in my Dark Angels armylist.

I don't know about the Ravenwing, because hasn't the current codex done an about-turn and made them Fearless? Anyway, the Deathwing really should be full-blown Fearless. But you could make it an army-wide rule... ?It would require a scarey amount of playtesting, but it would make the Dark Angels rather different.
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:15 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Apr. 09 2008,13:08)
QUOTE
So I've been pondering the issue of excessive Fearless units in the Chaos Lists.

Aside from people complaining about the number of Fearless units in the list is there any qualitative proof that it is problematic?

Without that there isn't a reason to start changing units.

I suspect that the issue is more structural (in terms of the ?access to these units) and not a problem with individual units




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:33 pm 
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I thinkt he biggest 'problem' is for other legions. However I reckon its fixed by having the cult marines and 'generic' legionairs (well appart from thousand sons).

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:41 pm 
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I'm not planning to change anything like that in the BL list, but this is very much of a background and feel issue.

Firstly, four Fearless cult lists are going to be very similar, and a general complaint has been that all-Fearless is somewhat boring. A whole army that can fundamentally ignore a basic rules mechanic (i.e. being broken in combat or suffering BM when broken = bad thing) means a certain degree of tactical depth is lost to the game.

Secondly, from a background perspective, while Slaanesh has always been fearless to some degree and the automata of the Thousand Sons also really ought to be implacable, the Death Guard and the World Eaters don't really have any intrinsic claim beyond just being "nutters".

The net effect is an army that is resistant to the damaging effects of BM but not able to ignore it altogether like Fearless troops.
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