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Thoughts on Swordwind

Tas

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:00 am

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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 17 2005 May,16:46)

If we were talking about a RealWurld game I'd agree. But in RealWurld there are no plasma or laser cannons in use either. Not to mention void shields, teleportation devices, spirit stones, warp gates and the like.

Quite right Mojarn, but plasma guns and lasers are direct line of sight weapons too so the same principles apply!

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Legion 4

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:47 pm

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Yes Tas, that has always been my contention with Epic Sci-Fi vs. Reality ... it can happen. Drake with Hammer's Slammers does a good job of blending both. ? I feel regardless of the "facts" that Epic is Sci-fi, certain points of reality have to come into "play". ?As Tas just said. And as I have said before, Epic is a high tech version of WWII. Field guns, howitzers, mortars, AT guns, infantry support weapons, AAA/ADA, missiles, rockets, MBTs, etc., etc., whether fired/used by Nazis, and Orks or Japs and Eldar, etc., etc. all should follow certain priciples. Whether lasers, plasma cannons, power guns, kinetic energy weapons, etc., etc. - weapons work/function a certain way, in combat/field conditions. ?We prefer to play Epic as a high tech version of WWII and so we see things in a certain paradigm. ?Now many gamers have little to no knowledge of history or military experience, so to them "it's all cool, bright, shiny stuff " (flashback to the circus colors of the SM2/TL era ! "The Horror ... the horror "! :ghostface:

) ?So in my mind saying, "it's Sci-fi and you can get away with anything", "don't cut no ice" with this former Slammer's trooper ! ? :laugh:

?And if you don't know the difference in all the real world weapons I mentioned above, then do some research ... Plus check out the sources that I mentioned. ?Or paint your infantry pink, rush them out in the open, roll your purple FA up along side with you orange tanks, roll the die, have a good time ... but don't call it a WAR-game ! :laugh:

? And as always do what works for you not me ! ?I'm just stating my skewed opinion ! ? :;):

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:10 pm

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Well, all I'm saying is that I think nowadays SP artillery opens fire a bit faster than WWII era artillery after arriving to a fire position. And I think that even with the supposedly backwards technology of the imperium their SP guns would be faster than todays versions. Even if the growth is not linear it's a long way to the 41st millenium.

And it just happens that I have read my share of military history & tactics. Even though I am not a professional soldier I'm not ingorant of such matters either. :-:

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Legion 4

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:14 pm

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I know you're not, and you know your stuff, Mojarn. ?Most guys on this site do. ?I hope I didn't offend you, I did not mean to offend anyone. ?I'm just stating my view of how we see/play Epic. ? :;):

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primarch

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 9:27 pm

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Hi!

When I designed Heresy, one thing that became clear very quickly was what is "reality" and what is "fun" or even convenient may not overlap. While I like as much "realism" as possible some things are difficult to translate to a simple game mechanic. Not that we dont try anyway, but thats why a lot of more current games a pretty "simple" ruleswise.

I sorta follow the if it works okay in the game, then its okay philiosphy.

Primarch

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Tas

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:03 am

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Remember that this august group is atypical of most gaming communities - the members here are articulate, well read, mature & experienced. ?What L4 says is (sadly) mostly true but doesnt hold weight here for those reasons.

Mojarn- yes agree and 21st century SP Arty is better again that late 20th century SP Arty so your logic flows - but the ballistics of the weapons havent changed at all. ?Its either designed primarily as a direct fire weapon or an indirect support weapon.

P - you have grasped the crucial point. ?I stopped playing modern wargames years ago because it took 50 die rolls to properly simulate all aspects of a single engagement, and also because I had knowledge (classified) about weapon/sensor capabiltiities that game designers cant publish. ?Thus I got annoyed that Missile X would now do manouevre Y and re-attack, the rules didnt do that. ?Thus I keep my hyper-accurate stuff at work, and game for fun in other areas. ?I still want reality in my games, but then again I also play Dino Hunts and Giant-Monster Godzilla Combats too!

Glad I could be around for this thread!

Tas:D

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primarch

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:34 am

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Hi!

Agreed Tas. Sometimes I think if a totally realistic game were made it would be the most boring game alive.... :;):

Sometimes "unreality" is what make it fun. After all it wasnt realism that brought me into epic..... :;):

Primarch

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Tas

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 2:04 am

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Quote (primarch @ 18 2005 May,10:34)

Agreed Tas. Sometimes I think if a totally realistic game were made it would be the most boring game alive.... :;):

Remember the boardgame "Air War"?
It was rated 11 out of 10 for complexity!

And Real life games arent balanced - I want a 10:1 odds favour and a complete walkover if I can do it!

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iblisdrax

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 4:55 am

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I think that to ever get close to 'realistic' modern warfare in a game, it will most likely be done on the computer. The game itself will do most of the complex work, the calculations and such, and you do the orders bit. There are a few out there now, the Harpoon series naval games, the Operational Art of War series among them. Unfortunately, most of the big developers have moved away from these types of games, as the market for them is not there. However, there are still a few independant dev teams that are still producing some of the best wargames on the market.

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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Legion 4

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 5:14 am

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I agree with all comments, here. And since I started this line if discussion, I hope I was not misunderstood. You all know my stand on realism but as you see I play Epic, so I'm not totally reality-centric ! :;):

All I'm saying is that is how we will play FA rules. And I don't agree with another Epic rule. And Tas is correct again and I am glad he was here for this thread as he was a FA Officer. But yes, the Boyz on this site are generally a well read lot, so most of the "chat" here is good stuff ! And Primarch's point about "fun" is well taken, we try to make our rules, realistic, playable, and fun ! Plus ... I'll say it again ... do what works for you ! :;):

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 6:14 am

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Quote (Tas @ 18 2005 May,00:03)

Mojarn- yes agree and 21st century SP Arty is better again that late 20th century SP Arty so your logic flows - but the ballistics of the weapons havent changed at all. Its either designed primarily as a direct fire weapon or an indirect support weapon.

Tas:D

Obviously, as the laws of physics don't change. :;):

However, wasn't the original argument that SP artillery shouldn't be able move and fire in the same turn? Or did I get that wrong?

My argument is that taking into account the forementioned improvement in performance I have no difficulty in believing they can move and then fire. Taking into account the improvements in communications and satellite assisted positioning et cetera I'd guess the future artillery gets the required firing parameters on the move and each driver is told exactly where to stop his vehicle. When the battery stops, it fires immediately and is off again to avoid counterbattery fire.

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Jimbo

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 7:54 am

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There is an issue of realism versus games balance here as well (not that Orks are realistic).

In the *future* yes SP artillery may be able to move and fire in the same manner as a MBT.

In the game though allowing SP artillery that extra *bonus* will ruin the game balance.

By making Epic more like WWII and less like near-future means that the game balance is maintained.

At the end of the day you need to play the game how you want to play the game.

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Mojarn Piett

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 9:46 am

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That is a different issue altogether, as the focus was on how "realistic" it was. And that is also an issue I can't comment as I haven't played E:A with IG at all.

However, I must confess that on paper it seems that with all sorts of aerial attacks and teleportation at the disposal of players the artillery must move all the time in order to survive. And without the ability to move and fire it wouldn't fire much, if at all.

But since this argument is purely theoretical and has no basis on reality I'd like to hear from those of you who _have_ played with and against IG. Is the artillery too powerful?

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iblisdrax

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:38 pm

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Well, as an IG player, I have found that artillery is a trade off. If you bring out your full Company (assuming a 3000 pt game), you are essentially trading mobility for firepower-not just for the Arty, but for a significant portion of the army, because you have to protect your artillery in order for them to do their job. Fortunately for the Guard, this is pretty much what they are suited for, a slow advance while pounding the enemy to pieces. Sometimes that strategy won't work, as when I got whomped by the Eldar. (@#$@#@# Lance and Pulse weapons!

) So, no, I don't think the IG artillery is too powerfull, because they make a big target (as a full company) or can be broken easily (as a battery).
As a matter of fact, I think that if you weakened the IG artillery, they would get whomped ALOT.

As far as the current discussion in this thread goes, I don't think it matters too much in terms of what really goes on in a game. How many times do you really move your artillery around? Even if they could, I doubt if I would move mine too much anyway, simply because they can hit most of the table on Indirect fire already. ( I play on an 8 by 4 table by the way) And the units that can threaten your artillery (teleporters, air attacks, etc, etc) can probably get to it no matter where you place it.
As always,

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

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Legion 4

Post subject: Thoughts on Swordwind

Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:06 pm

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Jimbo and I must of had an online Vulcan mind-meld ! I agree with his last post in it's entirety ! :;):

So it comes down to how high tech you want your E:A FA ! So your point is well made, M/J. With GPS, etc., 21st century FA is much more flexible that it's WWII ancestors, obviously !

FA has always been one of the IG's strong points, and dealing with it, a challenge. Aircraft is one way. And I/drax and I agree, how much do you move them in a game ? We put them under cover, with an AAA umbrella on the board's egde. And fire away ! So tactics and techniques vary, but as with rules ... do what works for you !

We decided not to use FOs any more as in E:A (and not in SM1), so this discussion has made me think ... in the last H/Slammers book, FA ("Hogs") rolled along with the units on a push to a star port and thru satcom, etc., stopped briefly, fired and rolled on. Maybe Jervis read the series ?! :;):

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