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Woe be da Orkz!
Bob	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 9:21 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:52 pm Posts: 10	I would just like to add my two cents to this discussion. The reason why the cost for GW models are so high is because the people all around the world are willing to pay the price for the models. Ok lets say that it does cost ?5000 for a mould, apart from that the costs of production is around 2 pence because they order material by the TONNS which is economies of scale. So lets say that only 50p go to contribution costs. This means that they only have to make and sell 100000 to cover the costs. And I would doubt that they make batch less than a 100000. (from what Ive read if you lot add all of yours together it comes to a tidy number and then multiply that by the thousands of other kids who buy it). Also plastic production is the same price if not cheaper than the production of metal models. ( if I remember I was told that the reason the price went up a few years ago was because of the new type of metal used). I wont deny though that the cost of making a new mould may be more expensive than they are prepared to pay not that they cannot afford it. It all down to profit which has to be high to attract investor and keep the current ones happy and that?s what counts in this day and age. So sorry to give GW a bad image but they go for what they can make the most money from. If you don?t believe me check out a business or economic text book which will show you what?s what I admit that I know very little about epic but business is business. Bob PHEW well that?s my two scents hope a haven?t offended anyone. _________________ Don?t argue with an idiot It only lowers you to his level and then he beats you with experience
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Jimbo	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 10:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm Posts: 3495 Location: Wessex	dafrca said what I was going to say, however here's my comment Airfix has a range of over 200 model kits sold all over the world and is the UK?s top model and hobby brand. Games Workshop (certainly) doesn't have 200 plastic kits, sold all over the world and is not even close to Airfix (I guess in terms of sales). _________________ Jimbo Felix's Gaming Pages Felix's Gaming Pages Blog Almost Always Right...
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primarch	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Mon May 12, 2003 11:35 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! I think it is important to mote that while GW may look big to many, its real small potatoes compared to other companies like Airfix and others that make plastic kits. For them whatever thousands a mould costs is nothing. That GW is telling you that 5000 pounds sterling is expensive is a tip-off on how small they really are. Looking at it another way GW is a big fish in a very small pond. So spending alot on moulds on a game of rather dubious economical potential is risking a little too much. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Tas	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 12:23 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	I agree with whats been said here- GW are about making a profit, but they are are nowhere near Airfix/Revell/Insert megacorporation name here in global terms and cant afford everything we wargamers and collectors would like (I mean...MUST Have! ) That said, the GW fish, while small in the global sea, is a big player in the tiny wargaming pond.  They need to continue to invest in their chosen area to continue customer interest.   BUT, they cant rely on just redoing the models every few years as they do with some 40k figs, and they cant always rely on the "new blood" bringing in the cash because us older experienced types hang onto their stuff and get disillusioned when we can identify a rerelease of something frommore than 5 years ago... I dont want this to become a rant on the "Evil Empire" because GW has done a great deal for the hobby over the last 20 years.  I just think that it has become a little stagnant and expensive (even with inflation).  I used to work in a gaming store many years ago and I saw kids convincing Granny to buy them the latest GW stuff for Christmas that they couldnt really afford on the pension, but did so to keep their grandkids happy. Attitudes like that of GW Australia as discussed on another thread dont help either Actually this does sound like a rant now so I'd better go.  And yes I still buy GW stuff, but not in the quantities I used to. _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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primarch	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 1:30 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! No problem Tas, gamers need to rant from time to time to allieviate stress Like other old timers, we can remember the "good 'ol days" when GW was more customer friendly and miss them. We all know what's happened since and yes it stinks. Heck, as a retailer I was one of those people personally responsible to get quite a few people hooked on GW games (for which I will burn in hell eternally as punishment ), so it is angersome to see their crappy attitudes. However instead of going down the road of eternal ranting (however fun it is for a while), it is OUR hobby and we need to provide for ourselves at least rules/fluffwise. I only need GW around for minis, so as long as they can keep pumping out a bare minimum I'm happy. Sure everyone likes new minis every other day and support by the truckload, but it has been made pretty clear that epic shall ever remain "a second tier game", which means second tier support and resources allocation. Again, that stinks, but the alternative is nothing. For those who remember the couple of years between epic40ks demise and the resurgence of epic of recent times, know what I mean. We already know what nothing is, however small, we are least getting something now. So let us sing an ode to plastics, may they be here always! Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Jimbo	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 11:58 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm Posts: 3495 Location: Wessex	Quote (primarch @ 13 2003 May,01:30) everyone likes new minis every other day and support by the truckload what I find interesting is that back in the good old days and GW had a new release (eg Dwarfs or Imperial Guard) you use to get 20-30 different models, but now you get 2 or 3, possibly 4 different models. My "old" Dwarf regiments use to be all unique, with the current models I can't do that without major conversion work. It will be interesting to see with the new Epic stuff if they do the variation they did with Epic40K, or they will go down the FW route and only have one type of model per unit. _________________ Jimbo Felix's Gaming Pages Felix's Gaming Pages Blog Almost Always Right...
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Tas	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 12:45 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:01 am Posts: 7823 Location: Sydney, NSW	>No problem Tas, gamers need to rant from time to time to allieviate stress Thanks for being so understanding.  I agree and to that end have been involved a lot with playtesting EA.  I dont believe in bagging it before its born and being all gloomy without doing my bit to make it otherwise (and I know other here have too) What we SHOULD do is run an alternative epic net-campaign.  Now that would be cool... (OMG what have I said/started?) _________________ Tas My General blog: http://tasmancave.blogspot.com/ My VSF Blog: http://pauljamesog.blogspot.com/ My ECW Blog: http://declaresir.blogspot.com/
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stormseer

Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 1:05 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:52 pm Posts: 4598 Location: Suffolk, UK.

what I find interesting is that back in the good old days and GW had a new release (eg Dwarfs or Imperial Guard) you use to get 20-30 different models, but now you get 2 or 3, possibly 4 different models. My "old" Dwarf regiments use to be all unique, with the current models I can't do that without major conversion work. Do you mean the newer range of metal models Jimbo? If so, yeah I have to agree, especially things like the new deamons- great tho they are, there is not rally a great variety- I mixed up the new Nurglings, the second ed ones, and a few of the really old ones, do get some variety- there are only about 6 different varients of the new ones, compared to 20-odd for the oldest!   _________________ www.darkrealmminiatures.com

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Jimbo	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 3:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm Posts: 3495 Location: Wessex	Do you mean the newer range of metal models Jimbo? that I do _________________ Jimbo Felix's Gaming Pages Felix's Gaming Pages Blog Almost Always Right...

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primarch	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue May 13, 2003 4:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! Yes, I remember Jimbo. Its odd how production value are so much higher, but yet the variance in poses and styles are no much less. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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Gandalf the Grey	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:33 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida	Hi guys, I have been giving the whole cost of GW minis some thought but I realized the other day how confusing GW's prices are. When it comes right down to it, plastic is freakin cheap as hell, and sometimes the packaging can cost more that the contents (take food for example). ?Another cost increase is that these are manufactured and packaged in the US and UK, and not Taiwan or something. ?That alone can be a huge factor. Then I realized something when I was thinking about buying Warhammer Fantasy. ?I am NOT paying full price, so I was hunting around for a deal, I was checking on what came in the box, and was kind of satisfied with the minis I was going to get. I also checked into how I could expand on the Orcs and Empire armies, and couldn't believe it, although I should have expected it, when I found the Empire Regiments box set game with 8 hand gunners and 8 spearmen, WHEN YOU NEED AT LEAST 10 TO FORM THEIR OWN REGIMENTS! Wow, that's great. Anyway, if you look at the contents in the Warhammer Fantasy set and break down what it would cost to get the contents individually, it is amazing: Rulebook (At least $30 by itself) Empire General (At least $10) Two Empire Regiments (16 Handgunners, 16 Spearmen - $50 total) Cannon ($20) Ork Warboss (At least $10) Ork Chariot ($25) Ork Arrer Boys (At least $30) Ork Boyz ($30) Add a few more bucks for a box, templates, dice, terrain, and measuring sticks- actually I'll leave that out, so the total comes to about $205 USD. GW sells the Warhammer box set for $75. GW DOES NOT GIVE OUT GREAT PRICE DEALS. ?As a matter of fact, a new army deal is simply the box set plus the army book, with no percentage off for getting everything bundled. Now, is GW bending itself over and taking it in the ass just to get us into the hobby, or are they making a profit off of the box set as well? I can't imagine that there isn't some profit off of the sale of the box set, as it would really be stupid not to do that. ?Even if it were a small profit, it doesn't seem like GW to give great discounts. So that leaves me to believe that GW poorly manages costs of operating, individual box sets are extremely expensive to produce, and maybe they are selling the main box set as a way to promote the sale of other items (expecting that you will buy a lot more), or they are just screwing us. I mean, are 16 plastic Dark Eldar Warriors really worth $30? ??? NO. ?So I buy them 20 of them for $11 on ebay. That is my take on it. _________________ Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com
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primarch	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am Posts: 27069 Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA	Hi! In my view the biggest "beef" I have with GW's pricing schemes is that sometimes prices are "game" related instead of the actual amount of raw resources or sculpting work involved in the miniatures you get in a blister. For example, I remeber that a blister of 4 SM attack bikes cost the same as, say, a blister of 3 metal falcons. When you could probably melt the 4 attack bikes and make ONE metal falcon. Absurd. When I do buy retail (almost never), I never mind the price as long as the "weight" of the product seems comensurate. I remember Dream Pod9's line of minis when they were the larger scale and I bought several of their real large heavy robots for use as Slann titans. They cost around 30-35 bucks, but those things are so damn big and heavy you could actually kill somebody with them. I my view worth every penny. If I can get that same value from GW, I would not mind thier prices. Their plastics are, however, ridiculously priced, Viod is releasing 50 figures for 50 bucks and the warzone boxed set when it was out gave you EIGHTY figs, the rules and extras for 70 dollars. The quality is about the same (regardless of what GW seems to beleive regarding their quality), so they are indeed too pricy. All this as it pertains to epic, will be an interesting thing to see, since, they are offering redone plastics for infantry, but we need to see what the price will be. If they offer sprues at 10 dollars like they did during the epic40k fiasco, then they do epic gamers no favors. If they can maintain them for 3.50 or less, then they are in business. Primarch _________________ Primarch The Primarchload Magnetized Titans Tutorial Net Epic Gold Heresy Rules
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chubbybob	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:45 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 10:15 am Posts: 107	Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 03 2003 June,18:33) Someone said earlier in this thread When it comes right down to it, plastic is freakin cheap as hell, and sometimes the packaging can cost more that the contents (take food for example). ?Another cost increase is that these are manufactured and packaged in the US and UK, and not Taiwan or something. ?That alone can be a huge factor. Hi I feel I have to comment on this thread. Plastic material is relatively cheap. However In this case the controlling factor is not the material price but the casting method. I feel qualified to comment because I was production manager for a large toy company specialising in metal diecasting and plastic injection moulding for many years. The problem is that you cannot effectively pour plastics the properties of the material will not allow you to do it . The only way to effectively cast plastic is injection moulding at high pressures in heated moulds, which if you want highly detailed with undercuts etc means multipart sliding moulds. These do not come cheap either in manufacture, design or working life. the price is also affected by the high quality plastic that GW use. polythene, the soft bendy plastic that many manufacturers use ie Airfix and ESCI is much easier to cast  We as a company would not touch a product with a bargepole unless sales predictions began at a minimum of 10,000 shots. As the size of the castings gets smaller and finer the costs escalate as extracting the air and designing the fill of the mould becomes technically difficult.Based on my experience I would say that to convince GW to refurbish the existing moulds Jervis has done a great job. As to new figures he will be hard pushed to justify the expenditure required to convince GW to produce in plastic. The developement costs of metal moulds are way lower and production runs much smaller. the other side of the coin is material is more expensive. There is no "easy" way.          Bob DeAngelis
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stormseer	Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:05 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:52 pm Posts: 4598 Location: Suffolk, UK.	Cheers Bob for that, yeah one of the things I noticed when starting 40k was the difference in the plastic- it seemed tougher..... _________________ www.darkrealmminiatures.com
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stormseer

Post subject: Woe be da Orkz! Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:51 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:52 pm Posts: 4598 Location: Suffolk, UK.

Regarding what Primarch said: In my view the biggest "beef" I have with GW's pricing schemes is that sometimes prices are "game" related instead of the actual amount of raw resources or sculpting work involved in the miniatures you get in a blister. Yes, I know what you mean, and sometimes it is ridiculous- single special characters for 40k for ?9, but I can understand the logic sometimes- for example, the new Chaos Obliterrators, absoloutly superb models, sure they are expensive, but not many will be sold- not every Chaos general will want them, and even then they may only get one or two..... _________________ www.darkrealmminiatures.com

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