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Dive Bommas
Legion 4	Post subject: Dive Bommas Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:56 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	One thing I can also see, is the Ork's initiative.  I don't like the rule in general, and would not use it.  I've played with rules like that in historical games and there it has it's place. But sometimes the G/W "fluff" makes some armies less than playable.  But it's a matter of taste, so as I always say, do what works for you... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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pixelgeek	Post subject: Dive Bommas Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 6:06 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm Posts: 2642 Location: Edmonton, Alberta	Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 04 2003 May,21:00) but against an experienced IG or SM player you'll most likely have less luck. My opponent knows his stuff. :-) I have the scares to prove it :-) I was thinking though that if I could be moderately successful then an experienced player might be able to do some more damage. Curious to know what you mean by the Orks being predictable? Feel free to toss me a thread URL if you've gone down that road before. _________________ Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.
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nealhunt	Post subject: Dive Bommas Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 8:30 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Legion4:  It's really not bad.  Generally, you want to double move or assault if you're the orks anyway.  When you don't want to, all ork armies get a supreme commander, so you get re-rolls on those important initiative rolls. I really think it's fine. _________________ Neal
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Legion 4	Post subject: Dive Bommas Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:41 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Well as I said use what works for you, I just see, based on past games, other ways to make Orks ... more Orky. This rule appears to reflect the Ork's limited command & control capabilities, it's one way to do it ... so go for it ... _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Gandalf the Grey

Post subject: Dive Bommas Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:19 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm Posts: 789 Location: Tampa, Florida

Man, I wish I found this thread sooner! Sorry guys, still a little new here. ?I am surprised by many of your comments because I have seen your names in the Playtesting Forum, but I felt like I was the only guy with major complaints. ?I guess it is good to see I am not insane.   The sad part is that at least a few of those posters are adolescents with lots of time to write E-mails. It doesn't bother me that those people are adolescents, per se, but I don't like to think that someone not of the "rank and file" has meant more than us "die-hards." Agree - 'new blood' has more influence. This is something which I have also noticed.

I have to admit that this really pisses me off since I think all of us in here probably know Epic better than Jervis does. ?Yes, he sees it from a player's point of view, but twisted in his Game Designer's eyes. ?We've all been playing each form of Epic for a long time now, and I really wish I was involved in NetEpic as I think I would have much more in common with you guys than I do with Jervis's ideas. ?Jervis and I have gone at it a couple of times, which doesn't bother me as I am pretty opinionated with will fight with anyone, but to blow my reasoning off after playing Epic so long blows my mind. ?I think of EpicA as one of Jervis's expirements. ?It's like his way of testing his therotical approach to war. ?I am really thankful for Jervis making some of my favorite games of all time, but I don't think he's really listened to us about this version, which I think in the beginning we were all really excited about.

I think Legion 4 (who's comments have won much of my respect) said what I think is the best way to explain EpicA

G/W rules have a predilection for 18th century sword and bayonet fighting. ?Their rules for indirect fire and CAS are like an after thought.

Exactly. ?You'd think after the war in Iraq a few weeks ago could have influenced the game, yet we are still seem to be designing a game influenced by (very intelligent mind you) authors expert in warfare during WWII and earlier. ?That is why I get so angry at not being able to split fire. ?I feel like my formation is in a square, waiting for the captain to give the order to fire. . . "Company, prepare to fire. . ."

Actually, I've got another one too: Well let's look at Epic and E-A. Epic is a Tactical game, one model = 1 vehicle or a 5 man fire team. ?Let's look at the detail Jervis tried to put in E-A. He says based on his readings of Keegan and Marshal, he developed the "Fire Fight" rules, basically most Infantry battles take place at 300 meters of less. ?The Burst Marker concept, an attempt at the replicating the affects of Suppressive Fire. ?The Cross Fire rule, how flanking fire works on the tactical battlefield. ?So what does any tactical commander always look for - Cover & Concealment. Cover makes a target harder to hit because he's behind something that stop projectiles, like a wall. ?Concealment - it won't stop fire, but he can't hit what he can't see, like hiding in the jungle foliage. ?So does
Hull Down and vehicle cover come into a tactical game - I'd say Yes. ?Not to sound pompus, but Jervis read about tactical warfare. ?I did it as an Infantry Officer trained in both Light and Mech Infantry from '79-'90 in various environments - jungle, winter, desert, urban, etc., etc. So we play cover rules for AFVs, it's a simple fix. ?And I'd also say read Keegan, Marshal, Rommel, etc. ?But that's just my opinion, you should play whatever rules you want, I'm not going to tell the =][= ...

I know whis is available in another thread, but I wanted to be sure everyone reads it. ?It kind of sums up how I feel when Jerivs quotes history to prove one point, then ignores it when making the point that something makes it better game (actually, say skillful and it'll really piss me off).

Sorry if I sound bitter, I am not trying to. ?   I really like Jervis and have had a blast playing many of his games. ?I really feel like most veteran players prefer 40k 2nd ed of the 3rd and AT/SM or SM/TL over Epic 40k. ?I do think Epic40k is a pretty cool game for veteran players, but definately not for newbies. ?I just feel like the games are losing character over time in this attempt be more 'elegant', which makes me laugh. ?I hate the use of that word. ?A beautiful woman is elegant, not a freakin wargame.

I think Epic A will be hot for a short time as newbies get interested in it, and are blown away by the new models, but I am sure it will die off. ?I expect the new Epic Mag to suck, as they all have (Firepower was great). I can't see us older players getting into it, and new players seem really fickle in my experience. ?Too much competition from Xbox and Tony Hawk. ?Hell, when Doom III and Halo 2 comes out, I sure as hell won't be playing Epic or 40k.

See ya.