Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada |
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primarch
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada  Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 1:08 am |
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Hi!
The 40k universe is more like a medieval fantasy world than real sci-fi. You have knights (SM), wizards (psykers), elves, dwarves (well...used to anyway...  ), monsters (Tyranids) and evil demons (chaos). So fightingthe enemy is close up with swords, axes, halberds and all sorts of medievil weapons that theri only claim to sci-fi is the word "power" before them. Such a universe works more like a standard swords and sorcery one than say a "Star trek/starship trooper" universe.
It was good marketing from GW point, becuase, simply put, traditional sci-fi isnt as popular as "sci-fantasy" due to the more fantastic features. In an odd way hard core sci-fi is too "realistic" or familiar than the sci-fantasy world of warhammer 40k.
Then again its part of the charm that drew us in in the first place...eh? 
Primarch
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Hergrmir
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 3:55 am |
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Well, I think it is part and parcel of the universe of 40k... who would think an Ork that tried to avoid hacking at things and didn't speak Cockney was a real Ork, after all?
That said, it's nice in Epic to be able to use a force that uses firepower mainly.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 4:50 am |
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It's a mind set ... regardless of the races being taken from fantasy (so are Klingons, Romulans, etc.), I see tanks, infantry, artillery, etc. ... I don't care if it's Orks or Nazis driving the AFVs. ?The SM1 rules had a very WWII feel as did many of the other rule iterations. ?The Tau are the closest thing to modern forces available in the 40K universe and add a new paradigm to the game fluff. ?Too many gamers see Orks from LotR, not an alien race with ranged weapons. ?When close combat players who think they are playing another version of 40K, runs into a gamer who knows how to use ranged weapons and tactics, it's a one sided slaughter ... and quite enjoyable ... ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Athmos
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 11:09 am |
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well, assault in E:A is not necessarily close combat... It is Firefight most of time, and "modern-style" warfare is still heavy on those.
And if we go back to WWI, there were a lot of close combat indeed, when it comes to "trench cleaning" and/or the ammo was scarce, there were quite some slaughter and butchering with "baillonnette" (I don't know if the word is used as such or not in english, it's that big knife that can be fixed at the end of a rifle).
Athmos
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penal battalion
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 2:54 pm |
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The British army made its name with the tactical use of the bayonet. I don't mind CC in E.A, just that it should not be focused on too much with some races.Orks yea! wade in guys and rip 'em a new hole! Humans on the other hand can CC but would rather blow someones head off. It seems most urban shootings are at CC range, we're a lazy species it's easier to shoot than hack.IMO.
Tyranids, never met them but sound terrifying/fun.
Cheers.
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Zulus' Sir! fousands of 'em!
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 3:27 pm |
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All good points ... hand-to-hand and close combat are not necessarily the same thing. ?Close Combat occurs in closed terrain like structures. ? Hand-to-hand is just that. ?The Bayonet (that is the English word for what you talk about Athmos) is sometimes used in both cases, however the Firefights in E:A is actually combat that takes place at less than 50-100 meters. ? SWAT type units don't use bayonets, they use close range weapons like SMGs, pistols and shot guns (save for their Sniper Teams and they use long range rifles and ofcourse no Bayonet !). ?We spent very, very little time on bayonet and hand-to-hand training. ?We mostly trained for fire and maneuver. ?But all armies in Epic do have their own "flavor", as did armies in WWII. The Japs, Krauts, Limeys, Yanks, Ruskies etc. all fought in their own unique "styles". ?So I think we are all saying the same thing and generally agree ... in Epic ranged weapons should be the norm and hand-to-hand limited.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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netepic
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 3:48 pm |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 19 2004 May,15:27) | | The Japs, Krauts, Limeys, Yanks, Ruskies etc. all fought in their own unique "styles". |
Out of interest - what would you say those styles were?
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 3:57 pm |
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netepic
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 4:01 pm |
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Ok - thought it would be a few keywords , bless my ignorance! At least the inquisition would approve.
"He of little mind, has great faith.
He of much thought, begets heresy".
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 4:05 pm |
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I'll try to keep it to a few key words and sentences ... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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penal battalion
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 4:12 pm |
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Duck! Being a popular key word in most armies.
The Kroot might make a very loose anology with the 'common perception' of Gurkhas within UK forces. Good field craft,historicaly happy to use CC, allied but not mercs'and a wonderful militry myth that surrounds them within popular culture.
Cheers.
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Zulus' Sir! fousands of 'em!
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 9:01 pm |
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O.K. Tom, let's see what I can do ? ? ? ? Japan : Busheito/Samurai (sp.) spirit was their saving grace, ground force weapons and equipment were low tech and behind the times. Logictics support - very poor, troops could live off the and and did in many cases. Good planners but if things went arwy would go to the Banzai charge. Officers still carried swords !? ?Could work well in jungle terrain and used infiltration tactics well. Were willing to die to the last man (and did) in the defense. ?That made them hard to defeat. ?Understood very little about modern mechanized warfare. ? ?Overall rating (from H/Channal Historian) - Gifted Amateurs . ? ?Germany: ?Invented the Blitzkrieg - modern combined arms warfare. Very good planners, very aggresive in offensive ops and the masters of the mobile defense. ?Willing to take casualites if needed. Very good equipment overall but lacked production capabilities (especially after repeated Allied air raids !) to fight a multi-front war. ?Much of their equipment was too complicated to produce, maintain and repair. But without a doubt produced some of the best infantry, armor and artillery troops in the world, at that time. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?U.K.: Very methodical, good planning. ?Good equipment, but needed US Lend Lease to help out. Generally fought well on all fronts. ?Troops were generally very brave. But in the early part of the war, many of their leaders were fighting the last war and occasionally predictable. Good in both offense and defense. ?Usually very dependable and motivated. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? U.S.S.R : ?Lots of infantry, tanks and artillery. ?Willing to lose lots men and equipment. ?Produced arguably the best tank of the war - the T-34 series. Very aggressive when well lead. ?Dogged in the defense. ?Production capabilities rivaled USA's and still accepted US/UK Lend Lease. ?Understood Mass. 70% (+) of all German casualities happened on the Eastern Front. The U.S.S.R. won WWII according to a H/Channel Historian. ? ? ? ? USA: I'm biased but will only say that the US had huge production capablities and 66% of the troops were drafted. Plus good leadership ...
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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netepic
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 9:35 pm |
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Very interesting - and just what I needed for DoD!
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iblisdrax
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:55 am |
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Great Job L4! As a fellow History Channel devotee, I concur with your synopsis. I might add that the Germans did have excellent leadership for the most part, except for the lone crazed dictator that mucked things up for them.
my 2cents,
iblisdrax
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primarch
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Post subject: Montreal tournament July 30, Montreal Canada Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:26 am |
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Hi!
Its still a very heated debate in some parts of who "won" WWII. Stalin wanted Operation Overlord to Ocurr in summer 1943, the allies, unprepared (or unwilling) gave them the Invasion of Sicily. Many argue that by the time D-day ocurred, the eastern front and thus the war had been decided (Kursk having ocurred in 1943).
As with most things of this nature, after many years of reading on the subject the truth usually lies in that it was a combination of both sides cooperation. While many critical battles were won by the soviets alone, could they have made it to Berlin without lend lease parts for their american made trucks? Or the Brits and American tieing up scarse german resources in the atlantic and european theater? Would D-day have even been possible if Russia had not destroyed the cream of the german panzer core in Stalingrad and Kursk? Russian production while close to the USA's was at 100% capacity, they couldn't produce more even if they wanted. American industry was still at 50% full throttle by wars end and acounted for 50% of ALL material made by BOTH sides in the war (prodigious!).
In my view it was a team effort. The consequences for either side if the crucial merits each side gave were not made would have spelled disaster for the remaining party.
Imagine if the Germans DID reach Moscow in 1941, by ignoring the Kiev pocket or diverting forces for OKW North to Center? Would the US been able to realistically invade mainland Europe with a defeated Russia?
Without the dominate British/US airpower that brought german industry underground and kept wonderous technology delayed from the battlefield, would the T-34 be all that great. Imagine the new jet powered HS "tank-killer" in service by late 43 early 44 and its effect on the battlefield.
The germans through their leadership, technology edge and sheer brass "balls" were one tough cookie. I dont think either side could say they could have taken it out without the crucial help of the other. There are simply to many overlapping variables in such a complex cooperative venture to simply say one side "won it".
Great topic, thanks!
Primarch
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