Thanks Jimmy.

Another thought, could people in Australia try an alternative tournament approach, where each battle is fought twice, with the players swapping armies ?

I believe the majority of tournaments in Australia are two day events which would allow for six games, or three such paired battles, and if nothing else people might learn how to use their own army better (and possibly even how to beat an 'OP' army ).

Note, this would be less useful in the UK where the majority are single day events.

Tweaking BT list to allow only 2:1 support choices instead of 3:1 sounds a simple change worth considering.
Anything that keeps BT focussed on Aspect Warriors should be a food thing.

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Will swtching to 1:2 for core:support make any difference to the power of the list thats causing this debate.

I'd just make a slight swtch to drop 1 ranger and the night spinners for a Vampire.
Avatar [0pts]
Aspect Warrior Warhost c/w 8 Shining Spear, +Exarch, +Autarch [400pts]
Aspect Warrior Warhost c/w 8 Shining Spear, +Exarch, +Exarch [350pts]
Guardian Warhost c/w 5 Guardians, 1 Farseer, 2 Hvy Wpn Platform [150pts]
Guardian Warhost c/w 5 Guardians, 1 Farseer, 2 Hvy Wpn Platform [150pts]
Ranger Troupe c/w 4 Rangers, [100pts]
Ranger Troupe c/w 4 Rangers [100pts]
Swords of Vaul c/w 3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm [250pts]
Swords of Vaul c/w 3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Scorpion [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Scorpion [250pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Void Spinner [275pts]
Engine of Vaul c/w 1 Void Spinner [275pts]
Vampire Raider [200pts]

To me it makes it more flexible tactics wise

It's a start that should not even need much debate. We then can zero in on more targeted changes with testing. I suspect there's even some 1:1 possibilities. Basically SoV/EoV and spinners and rangers should be no more present than aspects/guardians after the 1/3 restricted allowance, to be true to BT fluff and theme IMHO. That's a much longer series of confirmations however.

Remember it's not an OP list, though way on the upper side of the scale, mind you; Just is an extremely broad list that could use some theme.

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What about moving the Guardian Warhost to the troupe section and leaving it at 1:3?

Wouldn't that remove the 150 point 'gateway to 3 troupes' and reinforce the theme of Aspects?

Regards

Harry

Both the option have been discussed in the SUB-AC talk that been happening..

1) Changing the support from 3 to 1 to 2 to 1

2) Guardian Warhost to the troupe section and leaving it at 1:3

Thanks for dropping in Harry..

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Greg

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Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

Dropping to 1:2 would definitely encourage me towards the staple double vampire list, where the standard 2 aspect 1 guardian hosts is enough.

Wonder if it could be tweaked a bit to make it so cheap guardians unlock fewer slots than aspects.

You could for example have a guardian + wraith or serpents host, and a naked/support weapon guardian troupe.

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2 support per aspect, 1 per guardians. Easy peasy.

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umm, these last few posts are really going on to a different topic; whether to change the NetEA Biel Tan list and if so, how.

Perhaps someone can move the relevant posts over to the Biel Tan list issues thread

Yeah good point Ginger. Apoc (or other uber mod), can we slice off these bottom posts to the indicated thread?

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Only CS can do this merge/topic move.
I can cut them from this topic, but the target thread is in the NetEA Eldar sub and only NetEA ACs and CS have access there (but not of them are mods in this sub!), so i cant move them where we need them.

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Well back on topic, the epic UK site has amassed quite a lot of game data on the big 4, hundreds of tournament games.

Whats noticeable is that BTEldar are well ahead of the 4. If you take overall win% minus loss% you get

Cx Marines -5%
Gh Orks -13%
SL Guard -10%
BT Eldar +8%

The marines, orks and SL have between them a deficit (wins minus losses) of about 140 games. The beneficiaries seem to be fairly split between BT Eldar, Black legion, SFreaks and DKOK.

Trouble is this doesn't tell you any trends over time caused by the occasional tweaks to lists. Any change made now even quite radically would take a long time to make a big impact on the total data for the big 4 lists.

Could there be another factor missing too: The "noob" factor.

Would it be fair to say that the first three lists are often the default choice of newcomers to Epic, while Eldar tend to be the choice of someone who's already built and played an army or two?

Ie: The "core 3" will perhaps tend to attract a higher proportion of less skillful players, who'll crash and burn at tournaments a bit more often, skewing the results for those three lists down a bit?

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I also think biel tann have more intuitively good builds which helps new players. Most new player biel tann lists will have aspects, grav tanks, guardians and void spinners which provides a solid core and will play much as you expect (hits hard but is fragile) while a lot of new player marine lists will comprise almost wholly of sub par units (whirlwinds, beefed up tacc cos, Predators, land raiders, maurauders, etc) which then doesn't play as you'd expect (ie doesn't hit very hard, surprisingly fragile etc)

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Hi All..

Below link, covered some of the item spoken about in the Sub-AC emails..

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32195

and yes it has Tim's reports covering his games too, from Tournament he went to...interesting read...

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Regards
Greg

*************************************************

Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..