Sorry to again be seeking wisdom, in our most recent game we came across a few issues with ruins.
We were applying the 10cm in rule (infantry more than 10cm into the ruins cannot be seen, nor can they see out). However we ran into an issue where a unit was behind the ruins.
In this case a rhino was sitting behind a 3cm thick bit of ruin.
We had the discussion over if this is 1, cover meaning a -1 to hit, or if this means that the rhino is behind a piece of terrain and so cannot be seen at all.
This became even more problematic as we later had a defiler 9cm into the ruins (as opposed to being behind them) and so by the rule we were playing with the infantry, he could be shot at with a -1.
Can I check how other players approach this?

Finally, because it just wouldnt be fun without these debates...
we had a situation where eldar scouts were on overwatch, and space marine scouts with rhinos doubled to shoot at the scouts. The scouts came out of overwatch as the space marines disembarked the rhinos. But this begged the question of wether or not the marines were -1 to hit as they were touching the vehicles.
Anyone overcome this before?

Once again, thanks for all your views and assistance.

D

That's how we play it: units can see 10cm out of or into "buildings, rubble, woods, fortifications and the like" but can't see through it even if it's less than 10cm. Ya, it creates odd situations like your Rhino behind 3cm of rubble that can't be seen and Defilers 9cm deep in rubble than can be seen.

Overwatch can be used after any move is completed, that includes disembark. So he would disembark, and you would hit them based on how they were placed. In the open, no penalty. In contact with an AV, -1 to hit.

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RE: first part (dave's nailed #2)

Well the good and bad is that this really can be played any way in EA. This is part of the typical discussions to be had in the 5-minute-warm-up section of the game. My only recommendations is that regardless of choice, you stay as consistent as possible.

So the first part of this is the decision to attempt to play true line of sight or not with your models. TLOS has bonuses, mainly that the immersion in the game may be greater for you and that what you are seeing on the table is the LITERAL representation of battle field. It is vulnerable to modeling for advantage but of course someone doing that is a dill hole anyways (what do you mean it's not in range? look! that end of the vanquisher turret with the extra long gun is 6mm within range on that extra bitz thingy you've got!). That's an extreme example but it is important to note that figures have come in fungable scales and sizes from FW/GW across versions . Classic examples are FW super heavies being in 1/300 while GW was 1/500 or the fact that 3rd edition Leman Russ tanks are actually significantly taller than the 4th edition recasts. Also do you measure from the weapon and if so, where? Where do you have to target to?

Basically regardless of which approach you take, it simply changes the questions for the 5 min warmup in practice.

I will say that it pretty much falls over once you have one army using based vehicles and the other does not. You can work around all this (such as having a standardized point from distance on a weapon and where to such as the center of the target but that IMHO gets too fiddly for the spirit of the game). TLOS was envisioned by JJ when he wrote the rules but it's never been a strictly "enforced" thing by those people I term "The Hobby Police".

The other common approach is to use what's called Area Terrain effects. Basically your terrain is a conceptual area but that tree right there or those pretty ruins are not literal representations and that tank may be a few meters to the right or left a bit if needed to discharge a weapon. After all, as written in the Designers Notes, this isn't a single perfectly aimed shot from a stationary unit. The bonus with this approach is that it tends to not get bogged down and is fairly liberal to the application of effects.

I should point out that certain geographic areas tend to play with certain conventions so perhaps that the first thing to know. For instance AU players ovrewhelming use TLOS while in the UK is's area effect. The US is all over the place but I've personally never played TLOS. I should note that area effect happens to facilitate table top simulators well which may be of benefit to you playing more people so you get a tighter consistent story for you...

then again, maybe not.

Now locally my groups have always done in the US/Israel, and came to this independently of me knowing any UK players:
-area effect terrain
-any part of a model base touching or being touched counts as effected (same with templates, assaults, etc)
-all units are on bases and ranges are all based on shortest distance from attacker base edge to target base edge, models themselves have no bearing.

what you play doesn't matter as it's YOUR game and you do what works for you.

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this issue again...

AFAIK, you can't play the game if you don't use TLOS basically. The point with UK is that their terrain features are supposed to have infinite height, but of course they use TLOS (or maybe not for Titans???) . Dunno.

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Well the fact that it has been demonstrably played all over the world without using TLOS means you're factually incorrect that "you can't play the game if you don't use TLOS basically". However I respect the individual choices in this matter and as long as it's consistent for the game/tourny/player group/witches-coven/chavurah/whatever I really don't think it matters what either of us think and providing the information regarding the type of approaches to Dan to figure out what he wants is a good thing.

There's no "this issue again" present in the thread until you bothered to drag it in here

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in the EpicUK tournament scene (emphasis added) terrain blocks line of sight for all ground models, regardless of whether they're a warlord titan on a tall scenic base on a hill or an IG sniper laying flat, a base of terrain blocks line of sight to any units behind it.

It does not block line of sight for aircraft

this is done for several reasons, firstly it speeds things up by removing ambiguity, secondly in a game with multiple versions and editions of models, it prevents people gaining an advantage from taller/shorter models which can see over/hide behind terrain that other equivalent models cannot



could not agree more

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I've got a lot of experience with WarMachine/Hordes by privateer press, where every model has a defined volume, no matter the actual model size, and area terrain with semi-infinit height(the Colossals have special rules interacting with forests and cloud effects). But it works very well.

I've never been fully attached to TLOS. I've always felt that in a competitive format, it's jsut too subjective. "Oh, I can see the tip of his helmet plume! I'mma shoot him!". I prefer a more objective way of determining whether a model is in LOS or not than using a dang laser pointer(oh, I *'ated* when 40k started on the TLOS with laser point garbage. That actually, was when I put my tau army on the shelf).

That's what I said, it is exclusively a terrain characteristic (infinite height).

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yes and no, for example you don't measure weapon to target either ("my warlord's volcano cannon is poking out from behind that building so he can zap your tank with it but his other weapons are out of sight") in addition all war engines block LOS in the same way as terrain, so you can hide your warhound titan behind a baneblade

if you make area terrain and say it is sufficiently high to not be seen over then you are messing with the whole true line of sight thing, so yes while it's terrain convention, it effectively negates the whole point of TLoS

we don't play TLoS at EpicUK tournaments because of a bunch of caveats where it is not applicable, ergo we are not using a 'true line of sight' irrespective of where that characteristic originates

I really fail to see how this is 'an issue'.....

we appear to be talking entirely at cross purposes

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So hills don't give any particular advantage right? They're basically LOS blockers that don't give an area cover save? Nothing gained from being on higher ground for example. I have to say it sounds as good a convention as any - at least it must save any arguing at tournaments!!

Hills are LoS blocking but not dangerous terrain for vehicles and provide no cover for units on them

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Guys...

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Yeah but this is a perfect thread direction for me to mention my awesome house rule suggestion: being on a hill should count as being popped up.

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Only a gentle nudge Jimmy!!! And yes Kyrt, I could see the logic of that house rule... As you were...

What about really tall buildings, like sky scrapers or the like? Should they also allow youy to ignore intervenign terrain that's closer to you than the enemy?