The standard GG is already overcosted for what it does.

In this list, you've got more wiggle-room, because the GG is no longer standard - it's custom-built from parts. Having the MG compete for the same slot as an expensive GG is perfectly fine, because you've still got (or should have) the option of a cheap-and-cheerful GG instead. You could also, as others have suggested, allow the option of building the MG from parts as well, giving a situation where a cheap cut-down MG competes with an expensive GG, and still allowing for a ludicrous-cost MG for those friendly 5k games.

However, I think it's also pretty obvious that making a MG around the same base cost as a GG is well into auto-take territory, and is therefore blatantly overdoing it. At a guess, I'd imagine 950 points for the current MG could squeak in as "cheap enough to be taken sometimes", and a customizable MG roughly between 900-1100 points might also work.

If a great gargant and mega gargant are worth the same then they absolutely should be the same points cost. Why would the great gargant be obsolete if the mega gargant is no better? By definition, both would have equally valid applications.

You seem to be simultaneously assuming that they are implicitly not worth the same, but could be given the same points cost. Why would that ever be so? If 850 is wrong for the MG then don't make it 850, and if 850 is right for the MG then either it is wrong for the GG or it is right for both units.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

I thought the MG had more of everything and less of none?

new battlereport here: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29735

Here are the summary of my thoughts after that game:

"You can effectivly deny both the Blitz and BTS objective by sticking a defense orientated great gargant on the blitz. You let the Huge Stompa Mob guard 1 of thr T&H objectives to deny T&H.
Objective placement like i did here makes it easy for a GG to contest both T&H objectives and thus denyng the DtF objective also...

So my thoughts are that it might be a good idea to put a 0-1 restriction on Mega Gargants and Great gargants in the list (cue loud protests from Kadeton ) in order to avoid that the list becomes a 1 trick pony thats very boring to play and face..."

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Haha, you know me so well already.

I think if you put a 0-1 on Great/Mega Gargants (which should only be for 3000-points and under, surely - perhaps up to 1 per 2000 points if we're allowing for larger games) then there should be less restriction on the number of non-Gargant units taken.

My main issue with it would be that the list basically relies on having a GG guard the Blitz to deny both that and BtS. If you don't do that, how the heck are you going to defend your Blitz from air assault? Nothing else you can afford to field will hold up against a few stands of Terminators. If you have a single GG, which will also be both your Warlord and your BtS objective, how do you avoid losing it (and the game) other than by keeping it lurking at the back? I haven't come across an army yet that has struggled to blow up a GG with full shields in two turns if they bring their firepower to bear, and this list has very few distractions from that purpose.

Finally, won't it be "a 1 trick pony thats very boring to play and face" if every army uses basically the same combination of one Great and one regular Gargant? I'm just not sure how having two Great Gargants is significantly more boring.

Also, I can't help but feel that the list was forced into the one-trick-pony role by all the "The list has to focus on Gargants, everything else gets cut" design space restriction. Rolling this list and the Stompamob list into a single Walker-focused force with a variety of possible builds would be better, IMO. There are so many artificial restrictions on the list already, I don't think adding another one is going to somehow result in more variety.

Completely agree. I'd love to see a more stompa friendly list with some stompa varrients.

_________________
Necron AC (click to see current Necron list threads)
Toronto Wargaming Group

So, looking to get working on this again soon. A few thoughts of where i'm taking this:

Point reductions for all gargants 50/25/25 for Mega/Great/Gargant to start with.

No restrictions on number of great gargants.

No merging with other lists.

More weapon options / tweaking of weapons in the list. This is really needed i think.

If anyone have good suggestions for weapons please write them here. Right now i have 1 option:

Gutbuster cannon (or something like it): 45-60cm D3+3BP IC for 50 points. 0-1 restriction.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

I'm with Mordoten on not rolling two or more lists together. This is the ork equivalent to the AMTL list and there's no call for rolling that into the Knight Worl/Crusade lists either now is there? A stompa friendly list would be ace but should be its own thing.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

I wouldn't say this list is "equivalent" to the AMTL list in any way other than it focuses on titans - the Titan Legions and the Knight Worlds are separated by fluff organisational structure, which the Orks do not have. Which Imperial list is the Speed Freeks "equivalent" to, or the Savage Orks? Where's the Ork "equivalent" of the Death Korps, the Minervans, or the Space Marines? Equivalency between Imperials and Orks is meaningless - the way they organise their forces should have no bearing on ours.

Also, the AMTL list has a bunch of flexible and powerful Titans to work with, while the Orks have three - one of which is, apparently by design, competitively unplayable and the other two are severely lacking in firepower given their cost and activation restrictions. AMTL Titans kill from an entire board away - our Titans do basically nothing until they get into assault.

However, it's Mordoten's call and he's gone with not expanding the list to other playstyles, so that's what we'll work with.

Weapons I'd like to see:

A close combat weapon that's near in power to an Imperial Titan Close Combat Weapon (preferably something with EA(+lots) and MW/TK - basically a Ripper Fist but actually good, and without the guns);
A short-ranged IC weapon with a high rate of fire (some kind of flame cannon);
An upgraded variant of the Gatling Kannon (Supa-Gatling Kannon) with 60cm range and more shots.

Wishlisting, I'd also like to see some kind of wacky Tellyporta gun that could move friendly or enemy formations around the board.

I agree that the analogue is not 100% but a 100% customizable titan force focused list and a 100% customizable gargant focused list NOT being equivalent is poppycock, mate. Also, I didn't say ALL ork lists have a matching Imperial list so your questions of "where's the imperial speed freaks" is nonsequiter.

Now your complaints about the gargant construction and weapons themselves has merit to discuss. AMTL has 4 titans to choose from, 1 of which is competitively neutered by design as well. This list also has 4 primary war engines to work with as well. This list should gave the breadth and depth of builds that the AMTL does of course which will come in time with testing (how many years did it take to get a functional AMTL list, 6-7?). I think mordotens doing a great job charting a course so far, enough that an entire race I could care nothing about ever collecting suddenly is interesting and has me shopping for deals.

Your suggestion in an IC burninator is a good one by the way and I think the CCW need some work too. The biggest drag on this list is due to the speed limitations that gargants and stompas of all flavors lack. This is where crazy upgrades like Improved Engines or the like might be interesting or balanced with enhanced toughness over imperial counter parts could work.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Apoc over skype just mentioned to me the concept of a Krawla upgrade. This would put the Gargant on tracks and boost speed. Also gives a reason to bust out those Steam Gargants as count-as for that. It should be noted that krawlas are an acutal thing in the fluff and were in the old orkamideis list way back when.

40k Apoc example=>
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm15 ... C00032.jpg

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Yeah, I was being flippant - all I really mean is that the Titan Legions are separate from the Knight Worlds because in-universe they're separate organisations. There aren't, as far as I know, any works of 40K fiction in which Gargants and Stompas are exclusive, so there's no particular reason why they should be separate in the game. It might be easier to balance, and perhaps that's enough.

Off topic, as part of a larger discussion, I think the list meta-structure in this game is really strange. There seems to be a lot of pressure for new lists to be "focused" (verging on mono-build), but all the while the shadow of the original super-flexible lists like Ghazghkull's Warhorde falls over them, restricting their design space by providing a costing model that they're expected to use.

I agree that mordoten's doing great, even though I strongly disagree with some of his decisions. The cat-herding must get annoying at times - especially with loud, opinionated cats like myself who never get the time to do any playtesting - but he's managed to make great progress and keep everything moving. Full props.

I like the Krawla suggestion.

Krawla sounds interesting.

And no worries, I demand play testing of suggestions to make them legit (hence my playtesting of the 2 Great gargants to see if they needed to be restricted) if they are bigger. Just pointing out stuff to me and not showing it "in game" won't make me change my mind (usually anyway, I'm open to suggestions of course).

I think the weapons are where we need to put the most work. I will invite UvenLord to a "beer and thinking up cool weapons" night soon and see what we can come up with...

I would like to include some sort of "Mega-Dakka" with shitloads of shots (like 10) but with very poor aim (AP5/AT6 or something).

And like I stated before, if you have a good idea for a weapon, please post it here! The more ideas the merrier!

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Oh yeah totally. Re-reading above I sounded far harsher than the tone was in reality as well


Yeah that's more the reason for this. Also there's no organizational division, like the Imperials but otoh there's plenty of times where the Stompas and the Gargants spearhead an attack / respond to an attack in part of a larger battle (just like imperial titans) which the epic game could be reprsenting that part of a larger offensive. The story that comes to mind is the charge of the Iron Skulls led by Mannheim where the legio faced off against a bunch of gargants on Armageddon. I'm thinking that's kinda the vibe this list is going for.


Yeah that's something true. I think one aspect of that is that the lists under dev at this point are very hyper focused thematically because the more general takes are pretty well covered. What's currently cooking are the ones way out on an extreme. The notable exceptions being an Imperial Light Raiding army which isn't well covered until Splash started playing with the Tallarn raiders list. Some others are mono build I think less due to the restrictions of the list versus just how good some of the combos turned out to be that it's so obvious to take that build as to the exclusion others (DKoK Gorgon deathstars for instance).


Oh true that [meows]


Yeah Apoc's bug into the way back on that one. Sounds great!


That sounds AWESOME and totally orky!

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

I havent looked at the list for a while, but on the topic of speed, has reinforced boiler been dropped as an upgrade? Having (great) gargants as fast as a reaver really offsets the speed issue imo....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator