I'm aware that there's an FAQ saying to discuss this during the five minute warm-up, but are there any general agreements on how to play 'The to hit modifier also applies if intervening terrain obscures the target partially from view.'? Specifically, how much needs to be obscured.

For example:



Would you say that B is in the open because it's completely uh obscured from the left side of A, or it's in cover because LoF from the right side of A is partially obscured?

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

We got by the EoP here:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/tourna ... over-saves

And follow the design concept two sub-sections back pretty heavily: "However, the -1 to hit modifier should be generously applied"

Weapon to center of the model is usually how we do it.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I should probably let some of the more seasoned tournament players step in here but I believe that you tend to give the benefit to the defending player, so you'd apply the cover bonus.

I sincerely hope this won't descend into an infinity style "slicing of the pie" debate - I don't think it will...

In which case I'll go for any part of the target being obscured from any part of the firer.

Which brings up the next question - how does it work for formations if the target(s) are in cover from some of the firers and in the open for some of the others? Go by the same approach of granting cover if any of the firers' LoF is partially obscured?

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

Just quoting a post from a previous thread which might help shed some light on this.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Thanks!

I don't really have any issues with working out if there is LoF (I always assume TLoS with GW), just with working out if it's partially obscured.

_________________
The Wargaming Trader
NetEA Death Guard Army Champion

Firstly I think it's best to avoid the "whether to play TLoS" question, it seems to generally be unproductive but also it's not the question being asked. We're not talking about whether a unit has LoS to the attacker, but whether the target counts as being in cover if there are multiple lines of sight, some passing through terrain and some not. I don't think there's a lot of disagreement on that topic (though of course I could be wrong!) and how to treat the terrain pieces themselves doesn't really come into it. It's about how much of the target needs to be obscured before you count the -1. I would guess the range of answers would include things like:

Anything at all
> 50%
To & from "special" measuring points on the model (e.g. from the weapon to the centre of the target)

You can choose whether to fire at only the targets out of cover, or all the targets (including those in cover). I would therefore apply that principle here, i.e. that if you want to be able to fire all your weapons then they all need to take the cover modifier. You could elect not to fire at the targets in cover, but of course then only the weapons that have unobscured LoS to at least one model would be able to fire, and only the targets that have unobscured LoS to at least one one of the firing models could be hit.

For example:

For simplicity let's say solid lines are unobscured LoS, dashed lines are partially obscured LoS.

So the attacker could:

Fire with A, B and C without the -1, and hits can be allocated to 1, 2 and 3.
Fire with A, B, C and D. All attacks would take the -1 modifier, and hits can be allocated to 1, 2 and 3.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

The above looks good with one caveat. While you can see into and out of 10cm of terrain, you can never see through it so D has no line of sight (using the dashed line shown).

_________________
@MephistonAG for all sorts of twitter madness

What if A-E and 1-5 are each one stand with five infantry models on them? It sounds like they each get a cover bonus and it doesn't matter which individual model is carrying the stand's heavy weapon.

I agree with Kyrt and Meph above, however this does depend on how you define LoS during the 5 min warmup.

Alternative definitions might establish whether to take a line from unit / base centre to centre, from a single figure to another figure, or from one base corner to corresponding corner.
IIRC the usual mechanic is to draw a line from a figure on one stand to a figure on the other stand, or in the case of vehicles, from the centre of the model (though I believe some use the tip of a weapon). As everyone else says, when in doubt decide in favour of the target / defender.

The other point here is to note the effect on barrage weaponry. If A-E were part of an artillery battery, only A-C can draw a LoS on the same unit (#1), so only these units can combine their Barrage points to shoot, and the template must be placed to cover unit #1 and as many of units #2-#5 as possible.

Carlisimo, the E:A rules mechanics work per base not per figure on a base. So the positioning of figures on a base is irrelevant. The key question is rather the positioning of the bases relative to each other and the terrain.

It's actually really simple.


Just bend over and look from the weapons/stands PoV.
If you can see the target clearly, shoot with no modifier.
If any part of the target is partially obscured, apply the -1 modifier.
If the target is not visible, the shot cannot be taken.

Whilst this is spcifically mentioning weapon range, it is clear that LoS and range should both be measured from the weapon.

This also works easily with area terrain as long as the area terrain is defined clearly (ie, Los is blocked to the edge of the area terrain and to the height of the highest terrain piece - be it trees/buildings etc).

Anything else is trying to complicate a situation that is really simple.

Again though, the 5 minute warm up is the place to make sure both/all players are on the same page.

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Indeed, hence for the sake of simplicity the diagram just assumes that dotted lines meant "partially obscured" - I've just drawn lines centre to centre because that's the default in my drawing program, and assumed that there is some part of the model that's visible behind the intervening terrain. How you determine that is the initial subject of this thread.

By the way, when it comes to electing whether to fire at unit in cover or not, you make that choice for each type of shot (i.e. all AP make the same choice, but all the AT could make a different choice).

--

Regarding how to determine what is partially obscured, I think the consensus from this thread seems to be:
- For each attacking model, look from either the centre of the attacking model or the weapon, to be agreed in 5 minute warm-up
- If you can't see any of the target model, it is totally obscured (no LoS)
- If you can see all of the target model, it is not obscured (no modifier)
- Otherwise it is partially obscured (apply -1 modifier)

As Ginger noted, for direct fire barrage weapons you only need to have LoS to one unit under the template. Hits are rolled individually and units in cover get -1. However I think his assessment that only A-C (in my diagram) is a subject of debate (or at least is un-FAQ'd). Unit D has a partial LoS to unit 1, so can it not fire with -1 like it could for regular shooting? Even more unclear is whether you apply the -1 modifier if units under the template are partially obscured by intervening terrain (or even completely hidden) - units 2-5. There was a thread about this fairly recently.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

Nice point Kyrt. For the sake of simplicity I was assuming that #D did not have a LoS to #1.
We are also assuming that unit #1 is in range of units #A-#C
However there is at least one other wrinkle . . . .

In the case of barrages, if the firing units can see the target (even partially) I believe they can include their Barrage points. This is because the template(s) can be placed over enemy units that are out of sight and / or out of the notional range of the weapon. Deducting the -1 for units that are out of sight or partially obscured from all firers seems logical, though I had not considered this aspect.

So here, if we accept the above premises, Units #A-#C have a clear LoS to unit #1 so can fire. Units #D and #E cannot see unit #1 so cannot include their Barrage points. If Unit #D could partially see #1 then its barrage points would be included.

The initial template must be placed to cover #1 and as many other units as possible. Units #1-#3 are clearly visible to at least one of the firers so are not 'obscured'. However if a template is placed to cover #4 or #5, these units would gain the -1 for being partially or completely obscured.

Either way, I agree that this definitely needs to be FAQ'd.

This debate also highlights the 'shooting around corners' issue which may also need to be clarified. For indirect barrages I believe the above provides the correct solution. However for Direct fire (including barrages) the question is whether the definition of 'partially obscured' refers to some of the firing units or all of them with respect to each target unit.

Using the same diagram, lets assume that Unit #1 can receive the full firepower of units #A-#C, while unit #3 is only visible to unit #A, and unit #4 is only be partially visible to #A. So the question is whether #2 and #3 are 'partially obscured' from units #A-#E as well as #4.

In the past I believe Neal Hunt ruled that only #4 was partially obscured though it is obviously the subject of debate, and indeed the FAQ attached to 1.8.2 says this should be discussed in the 5 min warmup . . .

Rules-wise, when you fire with A,B,C and D, only D would have the -1 modifier, not all of them. Because target formation is not "in cover".

_________________
Epic Armageddon in Spanish (from Spain): http://www.box.net/shared/3u5vr8a370

Konig Armoured Regiment FanList: https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 41#p581941