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[Battles Book] different types of objectives

 Post subject: [Battles Book] different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:37 pm 
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After perusing PFE's and C Holt's recent works it got me thinking of different ways to capture/contest objectives. I grabbed the old E40k Battles Book for some inspiration, haven't delved into SM/TL or AT yet though (is there anything?). Here's a first stab at some nomenclature, any thoughts or additions? I was trying to avoid keeping track of an objective's captured/contested status throughout the activation phase and leave it to the end phase as with the standard objectives. That narrows down what you can with them quite a bit (and keeps it simple).

Take & Hold (regular Epic tournament game objectives)

You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase and your opponent does not. An objective is contested if both sides have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase. Objectives do not have a memory and you will lose control of any you have captured if there are no friendly units within 15cm of them at the end of any subsequent turn.

Seize (regular objectives with a memory)

You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase and your opponent does not. An objective is contested if both sides have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase. Objectives have a memory and you will retain control of any you have captured in previous turns so long as they have not been captured by your opponent.

Keep (objectives that can't be contested once controlled)

You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase and your opponent does not. An objective is contested if both sides have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase. However, once controlled an objective cannot be contested. Objectives do not have a memory and you will lose control of any you have captured if there are no friendly units within 15cm of them at the end of any subsequent turn.

Rescue (objectives that have to be moved somewhere)

The objective may be "picked-up" by a unit that moves over it. From that point on the objective moves with the unit. If the unit is destroyed leave the objective where the unit was until another unit picks it up.

Target (objectives that have to be protected/destroyed)

The objective is treated as its own formation and has stats like a unit. Once destroyed the objective is removed from play.

Capture (objectives that can be removed)

You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase and your opponent does not. An objective is contested if both sides have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase. Once captured the objective is removed from play.

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:50 pm 
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My Yet Another Mission System cards for Infinity (http://wargamingtrader.com/yams) could be worth a look for inspiration although that looks like an excellent set already.

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:04 pm 
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Nice work Dave.
Once fleshed out this might even be better placed in the NetEA Rules area as "variant" similar to the alternate aerospace rules?

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:50 pm 
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@Dave,

Looks very nice I'm gonna see if I can incorporate these into NetEpic.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:14 pm 
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I seem to remember some alternate objective rules in an old WD. There were a dozen or more card counters of things like an ammo dump, bunker, ect to go with it. I think it may have bee from the Titan Legions era but am not sure.


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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:38 pm 
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Very impressive Dave! These alt. objectives look quite solid and simple.
At first glance I think Rescue may need some detail.

In an engagement lets say the opponent kills the objective holder unit but loses combat. They may use the withdrawal move to pick up the objective and get away with it despite losing an assault.

How would "pass" handled? Yay or nay?
If yay; Formation "A" picks up the objective, then retain with formation "B" moving to receieve it and further getting away? (My human nose smells pointy ears lobby behind this! :P )

My two cents. :)

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:58 am 
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Hi! Thanks for sharing!

I found this some time ago: http://www.specialist-arms.com/fanatic/11abiadt.pdf

It has some ideas of epic objectives (most are "things" that happen when you touch them).

One idea that I tried in Infinity and was very funny is Hunt. It could be like Rescue but first you have to "kill" a giant bug, with scary stats and which moves randomly. To make it a bit more interesting, you can't kill it, you have to leave it with only 1 DC or fail the mission.

Regards!

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:43 am 
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Some nice examples there.

I always wanted the EA objectives to be "hold for a full turn". So capturing works exactly as it does now (take and hold), but you only get the victory condition if you capture it for two consecutive end phases. The idea being to fix the "whiz a commissar around at the end of the game to capture an objective" problem. It doesn't however solve the "whiz a commissar around to contest an objective" problem, so perhaps it could be modified like this:

You take an objective if you have a unit with 15cm in the end phase and your opponent does not. You hold that objective if you have a unit within 15cm in the end phase of the subsequent turn, regardless of whether your opponent does.

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:53 am 
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IJW Wartrader wrote:
My Yet Another Mission System cards for Infinity (http://wargamingtrader.com/yams) could be worth a look for inspiration although that looks like an excellent set already.


I meant to mention to you at bath that we actually gave this a trail go a few months ago after I'd spoken to you about it at exeter (we drew some yams cards, worked out on the spot what that meant in epic terms and played a game - obviously objectives were open not secret.)

It was fun if a little unbalanced. But with some work it definitely could be made to work.


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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:08 am 
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Quote:
You take an objective if you have a unit with 15cm in the end phase and your opponent does not. You hold that objective if you have a unit within 15cm in the end phase of the subsequent turn, regardless of whether your opponent does.

I like this idea.

All of the alternative objective claiming methods will change game play quite a lot.
-If you must spend an entire game turn at an objective (2 end phases) you'll encourage static armies, or rapid strike armies hitting on turn 1 or 2 at the latest (which then stay immobile).
-If you use objectives with memory it allows for more manoeuvring, and less need for anchoring units.
-Any objective that can be destroyed, moved, or otherwise taken from the board will encourage speed
I think this could be a very good thing to spice up games, though some armies may suffer a bit depending on the objective type.


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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:19 pm 
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@Commissar Holt - Good point, allowing units to pick up on the withdraw will make getting it out of their hands very hard (you'd pretty much have to destroy the formation outright). So I added the bit about not being able to pick up on the withdraw.

@Gwydion - I had seen those, they look fun but my goal is more to define an objective framework that can be dropped in to scenario victory conditions

I'm finishing up a more polished version that I'll post in a bit for more feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:55 pm 
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OK, stab #2.

I've added Hold objectives on the suggestion of Kyrt/Geep. These are, by far, the most complicated and might require some additional clarification. Try to break what I've written.

I renamed Keep to Defend (seemed more accurate).

I've removed Target for now. My thinking being this would be better for a "different types of victory conditions" thread. My initial thought that it would be some unmoving bunker type unit, but there's no reason it couldn't be a specific unit in your army.

Finally, what do you think we should call the ??? objective.

Quote:
Objectives

Objectives are often used to make up the victory conditions for a scenario. The Epic Armageddon tournament game rules present a single way in which they can be used, but with a bit of thought (and a few glances at previous editions of Epic) they become much more versatile. The following section outlines some different ways to play with objectives.

Unless stated otherwise, most of these variant objectives are captured and contested in the usual way: objectives are captured if you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase and your opponent does not; and objectives are contested if both sides have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase. Units from broken formations or from formations that have rallied that end phase can not capture or contest objectives. Aircraft which have landed may not capture objectives on the same turn that they land but may immediately contest them.

Note: It’s important to realize that objectives are only evaluated as being captured and contested in the end phase of each turn. An objective is not captured once a formation moves within 15cm of it in the action phase, that is only determined in the end phase of that turn. Similarly, a captured objective does not immediately become contested in the action phase once an opponent’s formation moves within 15cm of it, that would be determined in the end phase of that turn as well.

Take & Hold

As their name implies, your formations must control Take & Hold objectives and remain on them, fending off enemy formations, in order for you to achieve the victory condition.

Take & Hold objectives behave exactly like those in the Epic tournament game rules (see 6.1.4), they are presented here merely for completeness. Take & Hold objectives do not have a "memory"; a Take & Hold objective you have captured on one turn will not be considered captured in the end phase of any subsequent turn if there are no friendly units within 15cm of it.

Seize

Seize objectives are slightly more relaxed than Take & Hold objectives, you merely have to capture Seize objectives at some point during the game to achieve the victory condition. If you feel they can be left undefended you can re-deploy your troops as you see fit.
Seize objectives have a "memory". Any Seize objectives you have captured on one turn will be considered captured on all subsequent turns so long as they have not been captured or contested by your opponent.

Defend

Defend objectives are more difficult to control once one player has captured them; your formations must control and remain on them just like Take & Hold objectives to achieve the victory condition. Once captured, however, your opponent will have a much more difficult time trying to wrestle it from your grasp.

Defend objectives cannot be contested once they are captured. A Defend objective you have captured on one turn will remain captured until there are no friendly units within 15cm of it in the end phase of a subsequent turn. Defend objectives do not have a "memory"; a Defend objective you have captured on one turn will not be considered captured in the end phase of any subsequent turn if there are no friendly units within 15cm of it.

??? (What should we call these?)

??? objectives cannot be contested once they are captured. A ??? objective you have captured on one turn will remain captured until there are no friendly units within 15cm of it in the end phase of a subsequent turn. ??? objectives have a "memory". Any ??? objectives you have captured on one turn will be considered captured on all subsequent turns so long as they have not been captured or contested by your opponent.

Rescue

Rescue objectives are very different from the norm, they can be picked up and moved by your units. In order for you to achieve the victory condition one of your units must be carrying the objective in the end phase.

Rescue objectives cannot be contested and captured in the normal way, instead they may be “picked-up” by a unit that moves over it. From that point on the objective is carried by and moves with that unit. If the unit is destroyed leave the objective where the unit was until another unit moves over it to pick it up. A Rescue objective may not be picked up by a unit in a formation that's making a withdrawal.

Capture

Capture objectives are perhaps the simplest of all the variants listed here, you only need to capture them to achieve the victory condition.

Capture objectives are removed from play once they have been captured.

Hold

Hold objectives are more difficult to control for both players; before they can be captured you must hold them for a full turn to achieve the victory condition.

Hold objectives are considered held if you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase and your opponent does not. They are considered contested if both sides have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase. Contesting does not remove an opponent’s “held” status on the objective, but it still prevents them from capturing it.

Hold objectives are only considered captured if they are held and you have a unit within 15cm of it in the end phase of a subsequent turn and your opponent does not. The unit must belong to a formation that held the objective in a previous turn, and must not belong to a broken formation or from a formation that has rallied in the end phase.

Hold objectives do not have a "memory"; a Hold objective you have held or captured on one turn will not be considered held or captured in the end phase of any subsequent turn if there are no friendly units within 15cm of it.

Note: Hold objectives require slightly more bookkeeping than the others. You’ll need a way to denote them as “held” by a particular player and a way to denote which formations are eligible to capture them.

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:28 pm 
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Defend to the last man? representing the fact that it is yours till there is no one on it or the enemy takes it

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 Post subject: Re: different types of objectives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:35 pm 
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Ya, but you can just drive away and still count it as controlled if you want.

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