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Dive Bommas

Legion 4

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 6:22 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

Well, I've said this before, so humor me :laugh:

, Epic-A is Jervis's baby and it will be what it will be ... if you get my drift. I very much look forward to the release of the new models, regardless of whether I find anything satisfactory in the rule book. Again, if you don't like something in the rules, get with your gaming crew and modify it. We've done this for years with the numerous Epic releases. If the Deathstrike is too powerful, change it (in reality anything like should not be on the board, but be called in off-board as in SM1). If he/they have made the Orks an army not worth playing ... use your imagination and fix it. Or you can bow in the direction of the nearest G/W location and take everything that they say as carved in stone.

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:45 pm

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9350
Location: Singapore

This has become an interesting thread. I have one point to agree with, and one to disagree with:

Agree - 'new blood' has more influence. This is something which I have also noticed. To be honest, I think that it may be an almost definate decision with Jervis. In his position, he can rely on the support of some of the 'old hands' and the others will not be won around no matter what he does. So, whatever changes he makes will probably not affect the existing older players and their numbers much. However, for EA to succeed, and to get noticed by GW, it has to make a bigger splash and attract more players. Simply designing a game which E40Kers like is a waste of time. That being said, I do believe that the considerable experience and resources of the older base has not been used to the full. I never thought that I would say this, but I am not sure that opening up the playtesting to everyone is a good idea. Perhaps it would have been better to get 30-40 established Epic fans and formed a specific group.. hindsight is always 20-20.

Disagree - EA is E40K with jam. I dont think that this is true. There are a number of rules that I dont agree with (thank God the cc rules got changed towards the end, they were my personal demons). However, I believe that Epic remains at its core a very different game. I wont play tournaments, and I am sure that my bersion of EA will be adapted and changed to meet my needs. And that is what we should be judging. Look at the feel of the game and its overall structure. Even Jervis cannot believe that we will all play the same game. I think that the turn sequence, crossfire rules, supression by blast markers and other things make the game very different. If I lose a bit of detail (for example in my Eldar Heavy Weapons - see the EA boards!), then I will add that back in to my own games. But, that does not bring down EA.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:30 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

I have to agree with you, on both points. New blood will (hopefully) bring in New money and keep the game viable from a profit stand point, for G/W. And Old blood, Old school types, like many of us, are going to do what we like to make the "game" we play viable for us. Keeping Eldar heavy weapons, Terminators that can teleport, more detailed infantry types, OOP vehicles etc., etc. We don't play the game to satisfy Jervis or G/W, we play with rules that work for us ... Jervis's primary goal(s) is to make a profit and satisfy consumers ... that's a tight line to attempt to walk

... Release new models, make some $, keep the game moving and evolving ... or not

...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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nealhunt

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:45 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Maksim: I posted my disagreements with your statements on the playtest board, so I won't repeat them here. However, I would like to point out that at the same time you are complaining about how much superior the IG is, the IG players are complaining about how their big guns were seriously degraded.

Personally, I'd rather see deathstrikes with Titan Killer (d6) than Titan Killer (d3), explosive. It makes them only borderline effective against non-gargants.

All that being said, I was still quite curious as to the reason for the "last minute" changes.

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primarch

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:02 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

Wow, lots of responses!

I agree that any new game to suceed, must bring in significant amounts of new players to make an impact. In fact one of my pet peeves is that Jervis must indeed "choose" what his target audience is and stick too it. I admit as well that myself and most "old hands" should NOT be that target audience since it is not a large enough base to get epic to its prior core game status. I think he wastes his time trying to make a game that appeals to older gamers, as pointed out, their opinions will not chance.

I definately also agree with the opinion that the play test group should have been limited to a smaller group of people to make it more effective and it should be composed of by individuals who share Jervis's views on the game and will work to make it shine. Again, having "old hands" in this playtest group would NOT be a good idea.

Some views regarding Epic A echo what most net epic members have said regarding EpicA; that as long as new minis roll out for use in their system of preference then more power to it. As I have said before, the desire for its success stems out of a very real need of epic minis. That is a constant regardless of version. If Epic A's success gets me more minis then hooray for Epic A. As far as the actual rules, most could care less.

To be frank, I think less and less nowadays about IF Epic A will do well or not and more regarding what excuses will be given when it doesn't do well. }:)

Anyone care to guess? :;):

Primarch

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dafrca

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 1:17 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (primarch @ 08 2003 April,17:02)

As I have said before, the desire for its success stems out of a very real need of epic minis. That is a constant regardless of version. If Epic A's success gets me more minis then hooray for Epic A. As far as the actual rules, most could care less.

My thinking goes like this, if EpicA is a success then all of us will have new minis to play with. If it does not then only the two or three armies that the game starts with will get new stuff and the others (Eldar, Bugs, etc) will just go without.

This is the reason I care if the rules are good or not. This is the reason I care what kind of marketing it gets. Not because I think it will be better then Epic40k or Netepic or any other version.

Based on what I have seen, is it better then all of those versions? No. Is it better then most? Yes, I do believe it is.

dafrca

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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 4:55 am

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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
Posts: 7258
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Personally, I'd rather see Deathstrikes with Titan Killer (d6) than Titan Killer (d3), explosive. It makes them only borderline effective against non-Gargants.

Neal,

I don't mind that Deathstrikes were D6 Titan Killers. It was the lack of an LoS restriction or any kind of chack on it that bothered me. I haven't logged on to the E-A boards lately. I'll have to do so to check your comments.

By the way, I've really enjoyed your comments on the board. I wish you were in my neck of the woods so I could game with you.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:31 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

OT programming note ... Max, lately all I can read on your posts are "quotes", "emoticons", and red "new"

?? ?Am I they only one ?

?Back on topic. ? E-A Success by Legion 4: ?I buy a lot (all) of neat new models. I buy new rule and campaign books. I sell my extra stuff to you guys. ?I start dating super model from V/Secrets ... }:)

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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dafrca

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:55 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (Legion 4 @ 08 2003 April,21:31)

I start dating super model from V/Secrets ... }:)

I wish you all the best with your goals and dreams :laugh:

dafrca

_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
- Cities of Death, page 59

Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:59 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

I am willing to settle for the strawberry blonde dancer at the local "gentlemens" club ... :laugh:

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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nealhunt

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 3:33 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Maksim>> By the way, I've really enjoyed your comments on the board. I wish you were in my neck of the woods so I could game with you.

Thanks. For the most part, I have avoided doing more than posting my opinion and letting it drop.

I am still slightly embarassed about being drawn into that one rather flame-ish discussion of chaos engines early on. ?Aside from a couple of rather opinionated and insistent posters (imho), I think the whole crew has been fabulous.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:12 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Maksim: This just came up on the playtest board, and I missed it in my first read of the new rules. The Leader special ability is now cumulative, i.e. EACH model with Leader removes a blast marker in a rally or regroup.

Since all nobz are now leaders, that will make a huge difference in their combat effectiveness.

As an example, under the last army list, I made a nobz mob in gunwagons that cost 550 - 12 nobz, 12 gunwagons, 1 warboss upgrade.

In the new list, I made an equivalent that has 12 wagons, and 10 nobz, also for 550 pts. Only now, it removes an extra 9 blast markers every rally phase, and gets 10 MW attacks in CC.

Overall, I'd say that's actually a trade up... and don't get your WEs within striking distance, because an unsupressed 10 MW3+ attacks is going to shred anything.

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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:24 am

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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
Posts: 7258
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Maksim: ?This just came up on the playtest board, and I missed it in my first read of the new rules. ?The Leader special ability is now cumulative, i.e. EACH model with Leader removes a blast marker in a rally or regroup.

Since all nobz are now leaders, that will make a huge difference in their combat effectiveness.

Overall, I'd say that's actually a trade up... and don't get your WEs within striking distance, because an unsupressed 10 MW3+ attacks is going to shred anything.

Neal,

Thanks for the information. I've been so fed up with E-A that I haven't checked those forums out lately. This is a good bit of news for Ork players.

The Deathstrike is still eating at me though. The Orks have no way to counter that thing, not even cover helps. I guess it's back to airpower then and hope in that field the Orks don't stink too badly. The whole T-Hawk plus Imperial flyer thing is annoying, but I guess JJ knocked up the cost of Imperial Navy flyers for SMs.

All things considered, I'm going to be a modeller for a month or two and not think about what E-A is going to be like.

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 6:08 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

After reviewing the whole E-A download (50+ pages), there is more there that I'm not "crazy" about then otherwise. However, it has some good concepts, with the combat results system, having some merit and worth looking into. ?The personality/ character/ leader rules are of little use, but I had said this before, all our stands of Medics, Mekboy, Commissars etc. will stay the same in our "version" of Epic. ?E40K leader rules were not very good, either. ?Some real gaps in old troops vs. E-A troops lists. Although Jervis made an attempt, however still some holes exist. For Example, no IG Assault Troops, but that's easily fixed, I had mentioned this before too, that some "fine tuning" with old vs. E-A will probably be needed. The Indirect Fire rules are like an after thought. ?Artillery is a key asset in this type of game system, I have seen, in a couple of posts of army lists you guys put up for review, a clear lack of this. ?I don't know if that's because there is a lack of understanding of how to use Arty or the rules are weak. Probably a combination of both. ?The best system was from SM1 and we still use it. I could be wrong, but I was trained to call in artillery and airstikes in the "real-world", so what do I know :laugh:

!!! ?The Aircraft rules are unnecessarily complicated, however the flak rules have some merit

, a little more study on these are required ?

... ?One thing I've noticed, in a number of places in the rules, is that Jervis intimated, if you want, you can use other methods than outlined in the rules. ? So I see that as being a good concept. ?I don't like the organization charts, they are as weak as E40K's, sorry

, they just don't work for me. ? I realize this is still a work in progress, but I'm betting most of what we see is what we're going to get in the hard-copy of the rules when published. ?However, the unit lists give us an idea of what new units will be released, ie., Raptors, IG snipers, etc., etc. ? ?Hey guys, I don't mean to be negative, this is only my opinion, I say, as I have said before, use what rule system works for you. ?Please feel free to ignore my ramblings :laugh:

!!!

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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dafrca

Post subject: Dive Bommas

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2003 7:21 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Legion 4,

Nothing wrong with what you said. Even if I did not agree with all the things you said, you did touch on most of the items that seem to be "issues" for people.

What I do find interesting is the amount of people who like each of the different editions. The split seems to be about even 1/3rd each of the veriations. Some think SM was the best, some think Epic40k, and some like this one the best.

In any case, I hope EpicA is a success if only to allow time for a lot of the new minis to make it out into our hands. ?

dafrca

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"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
- Cities of Death, page 59

Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com

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