Razorbacks are transports, and the only way to get spare transport slots. Don't underestimate that.

_________________
- Ulrik

so....

Razorback advantages - faster, longer range (lascannon, who EVER uses the HB version?) transport
Vindicator advantages - better armour, better firefight, WAY better AP shooting, walker

I'd be keen to try vindicators as a 25 pt upgrade, they would be fantastic in tactical formations to boost FF support potential

may trial them in the IF list.....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

MikeT just asked me a good question...

are 4 vindicators better than 5 land speeders?

if not, why are they costed more?

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Depends what your using them for

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Yeah I see where you're coming from Steve but statistically this doesn't quite add up that way as it's closer than that.

e.g Even in a situation where Marines win initiative, have prepped and engage, they are still in a situation where the Chaos formation will be on top in terms of resolution (given the usual Chaos builds I see are 5-6 Chaos Termies + DP). If the resulting rolls go Marines' way sure the Chaos get hurt but not by nearly as much as the Marines if Chaos win, as the fearless DP is always left on the table and normally with 1-2 units extra (broken though and likely to be usable later) - Marines possibly get wiped out or reduced to 1 unit (probably the Chaplain unit). Thunderhawk is a great option for collection but you're likely to have only 1 unit left in this match up. Chaos spent 440 - 505 points, Marines spent 600 points (inc the TH) and all for the fun of losing an important formation and the Chaos formation remains (at half size).


I was talking mainly about drop forces not air assault and the Iron Warriors can do drops and they're practically approved - even Developmental lists are usually allowed in Tournies - at least in Australia. Having Arty with Disrupt like this and drop forces means you don't need Deathwinds.

in your example, that lone DP is broken as soon as anyone even looks at him, fearless or not, plus it's almost always the BTS so people will be going after him, and 3+RA is great but it only takes that one hit..... I assume we're working the maths between the two formations fighting directly against each other? because you have to take other factors into account, say you had a BL formation which had teleported and picked up a single BM, why would I engage that formation in CC with my terminators? with a chaplain, I'm already starting +3 up (+4 if you're not taking 2 extra stands) I'd just FF you, assume probably no kills on either side, then rely on that starting bonus to hackdown the terminators without worrying about their armour.... or I'd avoid them, why throw my units away taking big risks unless I'd already won?

the marine air assault is really huge, you can pick where you assault, anywhere on the table, at pretty much any point in the turn, teleporters pick up blast markers, especially when the formation size is increased, can be easily avoided/screened, are at the mercy of the strategy rolloff, and pretty much HAVE to engage at the start of the turn, and if they fail to activate (which often happens due to picking up blast markers), they are largely at the mercy of the enemy, assuming the thawk has no blast markers, it literally cannot fail to activate, it can barge screening troops out of the way and hit pretty much anywhere on the table, assuming you don't collect the termies with another thawk, you then have a separate activation to fly around, blasting targets of opportunity or airlifting other formations

I'm with Steve54 on this, the marines have plenty of advantages over the black legion, it doesn't make them better or worse, but I think they're probably on par, just that bit more difficult to use effectively and a little less forgiving, I'm still learning and I've been playing marines pretty much exlusively every week for close to 2 years now

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Yep on par, but with the added advantage of all the previously mentioned unit types giving them other avenues of winning. I didn't say Marines didn't have advantages, but they are difficult for new players (even experienced ones) to win with. There are lot of counters to Marine armies - both air, drop and ground designs.
As I said, my point was that Chaos can do most of the things Marines do - there's no denying it - but get other options as well to give the list an alternate plan to win, which Marines struggle with.

Obviously, I'm not saying marines can't win but why is it the learning curve is so steep and often never overcome? Why are Marines so hard when a lot of other armies are much easier(and particularly when playing Marines - Eldar, for example)?

For a list that is sort of the iconic GW army type and the first list people will often play with, I worry people would prefer to drop them after a while because they don't perform all that easily. Heck even experienced players say things could be better - I'm just trying to ascertain how to give them a plan B and it's not that easy given the road blocks to it.

Are we (or do we want to be) simply stuck with Air Assault/Drop lists all the time from the Codex list? I've had comments of "Oh no another Marine AA/Drop list?" so it comes from both sides of the table. Surely, that's not a great outcome for this list when both proponents and opposition are saying that?

I don't think a list with 1-2 thunderhawks, terminators and devs and a spaceship counts as an 'air assault/drop list', it's only a third of the army, the rest is stuff like tacticals, *hackspit* warhounds, speeders, scouts, bikes and predators... you can certainly increase the air power of the list by adding in a second terminator formation and a second lot of devs, but I think the marines play as marine fluff dicates, rapid insertion and fast attack.....

Kev101 has been pretty successful with marines at UK events using the following:

DEVASTATOR [275]
4 Devastator Units plus Transport, Razorback LAS

TACTICAL [400]
6 Tactical units plus Transport, Razorback LAS, Hunter

TACTICAL [375]
6 Tactical units plus Transport, Hunter

SCOUT [175]
4 Scouts plus Transport, Razorback LAS

SCOUT [175]
4 Scouts plus Transport, Razorback LAS

SCOUT [150]
4 Scouts plus Transport

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Land Speeder

TERMINATOR [350]
4 Terminator units

THUNDERHAWK [200]
1 Thunderhawk gunship

WARHOUND TITAN [275]
1 Warhound Titan

WARHOUND TITAN [275]
1 Warhound Titan

THUNDERBOLTS [150]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

if that is an air-assault list, then I think we're talking at cross purposes.....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Yep, fair point, looks like a ground list to me. I wonder how it would do in the Australian meta due to the prevalence of multiple WEs and RA in opposition lists.

The hackspit Warhounds comment is generally a thorn in my side though What to do about them?

I think one of the best parts of EA is that marines is not the braindead noob army it can be in 40k. They are the Emperor's finest - leave tactical unsubtlety to the Guard.
And you can't claim that BL can do all Marines can and more besides when Marines have such huge advantages in the air game.

_________________
- Ulrik

I do sometimes worry that Eldar have a bit too high potential. They have mobility and firepower, which in the hands of a decent player is maybe too good at negating their fragility. I'd be happier if they had superior mobility but were just moderately dangerous. Would make you work harder to get that crushing local superiority that wins games.

_________________
- Ulrik

Well you would compare them to 5 tornadoes? Speeders faster, have skimmer, more firepower when sustaining, but worse firepower when doubling, more so firing into cover, not as good at AT, not as good for FF, vulnerable to AP. You could make them par on points, but then why so much cheaper than destructor's?

Underlined for clarity.


Agreed, but can this issue be resolved?

On the complaints about 'not another marine air assault list'

A) Marines are probably the most popular army around
B) The codex list is intended to play as an air assault list with rapid strike support elements

If A and B are true then you are likely to come up against them in a tournament hence it seeming like its all anyone plays....

We don't hear the complaints of "good grief, ANOTHER mechanised infantry + artillery steel legion army" even though most SL lists tend to be based around that playstyle....

You wouldnt expect a necron player to give up his portals, a krieg player to give up his gorgons or a chaos player to give up his daemons, even though they are crucial factors in both fluff AND overall army strategy..... and I hate facing those three armies WAY more than air assault marines....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

The Vindi for 25 is a pretty interesting idea. I have no idea if it would break things or not. For example the EpicUK steel legion can take 3 griffons for 50 points, which seems a steal, but actually is still difficult to fit into what you want in your army.

If no-one can think of a killer build off the top of their heads maybe you should go with that before changing the demolisher cannon?

The choice between razorback and vindi isn't clear cut, you still need the razor for the transport capacity and the vindi slows your formation down by 10cm when doing the beloved double, meaning it wil swiftly be at the back of the formation, not the front as a bullet stopper. It is also points that lose you another activation if taken in addition to razorbacks.

How do they look as additions to Land Raider formations? I think there they are worth it and if you are getting raiders why not pay 50 points for 2 vindies. Formation cost 450 for 7 av's, 4 of which are RA4+, 6 of the vehicles moving at the same speed. But you can avoid that by taking away the upgrade from land Raiders. For Predator destructors? Again slow it down, but probably worth it for 300 points without a hunter. It doesn't appear you can take vindies with devestators and with tacticals you could build a bts with 2 vindies, a hunter, a razorback and a leader for 475, but not sure what it would achieve comapred to no vindies and the speed gain.
I suppose you could do an interesting load out with 3 lots of assault marines for 675 in a landing craft, but that isn't much better than 450 points of scouts or 750 points of devs. Would a formation of assault marines on the ground with 2 vindies be an attractive proposition?