Dobbsy wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
From a power view I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, ATSKNF, MW Warhounds, Thunderhawks, SR5, Init 1 Spaceships, Speeders and deathwind drop pods are all powerful parts of the SM list which no approved Chaos list get. BL also has terminator+scout restrictions.
I guess my point is more aimed at the fact that the Marines are a 1 (perhaps 2) trick pony that people often find difficult to win with. Chaos don't seem to suffer that description.
Chaos can essentially do what Marines do (except great air assault - although JZ thinks otherwise for some lists) and with all the added weaponry and troop types it lets them perform the ground game better in general and can still put in Deathclaw drop attacks - more accurately as well - just without the Deathwind attacks - but with all the additional nasties they can bring in a Deathclaw drop I think the added numbers and nastiness outweighs this to a degree. You can be more aggressive and pile on the assault monsters and don'tneed a specific turn 1 drop hammer. Add in Artillery in some lists and you have no need of Deathwinds. Also I've found drops versus Strat 4 armies with 4+ armour tend to get your drop forces smashed as they either avoid your drop turn 1(by winning the strat roll), or your attacks bounce and then you're outnumbered and stranded on the other side of the board.
The Space craft having both OB and PP, while they may go second vs Marines, against everyone else it usually gives them a chance to pick off WEs regardless of the turn and possibly hit enemy formations with OB - even v Marines, Strat 4 is often a Chaos goes first outcome giving them more space craft action turn 1. Obviously the initiative 2+ is different but 5/6 chance to turn up is not too bad given the abilities the additional weaponry they bring.
The teleporting Chaos Termies get to pack extra nasties in their teleports too giving them a numbers advantage and a EA+ MW advantage.
Steve54 wrote:
From my experience and observation BL is an easier list to play initially as with larger numbers and being more ground based they are quite forgiving (though not necessarily easy to win with) whilst in the hands of an experienced player who knows how and when to launch his air assaults the SM list is more powerful.
That's interesting as BL Chaos usually win vs Marines in the games I've seen, due in part to the addition of the WEs (specifically the Deathwheels) they can bring and all the super nasties they get.
Steve54 wrote:
Given that the BL tend to play more 'conventionally' ie some terminators teleporting but the rest advancing as a mechanised or foot-slogging wave I'd be hesitant to add MW to Vindicators as they will fit well in the style of the list as they are.
Yeah I feel this too and this is the problem with the Marines in that they don't do conventional/ foot slogging overly well but as more of a back up style - which most people tend to play with due to the "X- factor" of drop lists - basically you win or lose with drop lists as there's no guarantee of your strategy working and you may also be outnumbered in activations which if you're stranded you can be cut off and quickly reduced in numbers.
Steve54 wrote:
I don't think Vindicators fit well in the SM list as the list tends to work best with air assaults backed up by fast mutually supporting primarily assault orientated units.
Would you see more vindicators in SM lists if the formation was 4-6 or you could add one to devs or tacticals?
This is the problem and the question that I'm struggling with. Do we just bump the numbers or try something a bit more decisive? Will people be more inclined to take a 6 strong formation or will it still languish in the unused pile?
Terminators - Chaos terminators are vastly inferior to SM terminators - the only pro they have is that you can have more+give them daemons+daemon princes against that you have SR5-4 so SM are more likely to teleport and go first, ATSKNF which is especially important to terminators are they are generally going to be isolated in the enemy half - SM terminators break through BMs or losing as assault and you still need kills to hack them down, Chaos terminators are doomed if you break as they hackdown as normal and finally thunderhawks which are the minimal risk way to deploy terminators.
Talking about Chaos artillery and air assaults is not really relevant as no approved Chaos list has these, Red Corsairs are stuck at developmental as they have no AC and there are concerns over there air assaults, Emperors Children have been drastically rebooted and stalled - and I'm not sure I would ok a fearless Thawk anyway and Iron Warriors (artillery) are progressing well but don't have thawks or the assault stuff to beef up their teleporters.
Dropping - I'd happily take deathwind over dreadclaw placement virtually every time, no deathwind means if you want to assault it isn't auto-prepped which is huge. In the UK the main dropped SM formation is devastators so placement isn't that important as their role is for the deathwind to be disruptive as possible with BMs and then the devs to either FF or shoot. Creates BMs and hopefully targets AA to prep for the thawks.
Spaceship - I take a spaceship with most armies and without drop podding they are pretty even two templates and guaranteed turn 1 vs 1 template, 1 pin point, coming on a 2 2nd vs SM+dice off vs Eldar
Quote Dobbsy
Yeah I feel this too and this is the problem with the Marines in that they don't do conventional/ foot slogging overly well but as more of a back up style - which most people tend to play with due to the "X- factor" of drop lists - basically you win or lose with drop lists as there's no guarantee of your strategy working and you may also be outnumbered in activations which if you're stranded you can be cut off and quickly reduced in numbers
So Chaos are better at SM back up style, and the problem is Vindicators, especially as a 6, fit well into that style. I disagree with the win/lose with drop+air assault lists - in my experience the best SM lists have a drop pod formation and an air assault (often with empty thawk to then pick them up) but also a good amount of ground units to a) prep the way for the air assault and b) mean the SM aren't out activated so the air assault goes in last. All drop or all air assault armies are win/loss but as part of a wider list they do really well
