My decision is we add the 4-stand formation and try them out before making any other changes.

I know I go off on wild tangents sometimes. But I'm not actually considering the 25 point discount on the larger assault formations at the moment, or the Sanguinary Priest add-on. As I've said, let's do the 4-stand formations first and see how that goes!

I'll try to have the new version of the list out today. What changes do we have for this list?

- Addition of 4-stand Assault Formations
- Addition of Sanguinary Guard
- Urrrrgh it seems like there was one other tweak that I am forgetting

Tiny Tim, thanks for the thoughts. I'm really glad we're getting more playtest data. I'm glad to see that you don't feel the SRs are overpowered. I think so far that seems to be the consensus.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Do you also want to evolve the list to 2.4, or just playtest with these changes a bit?

Same here.. But now, i have 12 of those little birds..

Yes, I am going to change the list to 2.4. I think it's time.

I have no plans to change what the SR can transport.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Version 2.4 is up! Check the very first post of the thread. Changes to this edition -

1. Updated Sanguinary Guard
2. Addition of Infernus Predators
3. Added Heavy Bolters to Scouts
4. Added 4 stand Assault formations

Enjoy! I like the way this list is shaping up!

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Great work! You really put alot of effort into this list! This is how an AC should be doing his "job"! :-)

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Thanks for the update - the cost of the Stormraven formation seems to have been lost.

I'm not sure that the extra BM for losing all the Sanguinary Guard is needed in addition to the (other) BTS rule, but I will give them a go in my next BA test.

All other tweaks look good.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Cool. A couple of things mostly typo sort of things

You only need to put the word "Assault" in the upgrades to the Assault formation, not add up to 2 etc.

In the SG entry you added the line in the upgrades and it pushed the formation title down. Try adding ina line below and cutting and pasting the lines down so the title is at the top of the title section. Word is a wonderful tool (not in the "manipulating equipment" sort of way)

Also, I thought we were going with 4 SG units not 6...? In the discussion about them way back I mentioned they were up around Terminator cost for 4 so 350 for 6 might be underpricing them.

I would probably tone down the SG rule to any formation within 30cm as theoretically "in line of sight" could mean the table top. I'm not sure giving the entire army a BM in one turn will be all that helpful.

Is the Infernus cannon supposed to have 15 or 30cm range? If not 20cm is not a legal or generally accepted game weapon range.

Shouldn't the BA Predator be called BA Pred Annihilator?

There are 20cm units but they are rare anomalies but the concept of it being "illegal" is artificial and demonstrably incorrect. The original EA book came with 20cm ranged weapons in them illustrating they are allowed. Of course their rarity in the EA book should be indicative of the rarity they should be across of lists.

I believe the convention of flame based weapons have been sponsons being 15cm and turret main cannons being 30cm. I don't know the range of the cannon in 40k so I can't say what's appropriate for this unit

Also, I'm not sure if two units is better than a single with weapon options (like we have in dreadnoughts) is better. The Baal predator is allowed to take twin linked assault cannons or the burninator bbq gun already. Basically I'm saying that an Infernus upgraded with Lucifer pattern engines IS a Baal Predator with the BBQ gun in Epic for all intents and purposes. There's no need for it in that light. If you decide they're both to be kept you need to drop the speed by 5cm OR rename the unit BA Predator Infernius as they are found in other lists and have standard speeds by default.

Fluff wise though their inclusion creates a bit dissonance due to the fact the Infernus was created due to the very fact the Baal predator template was not handed over by the BA in the first place. The efficacy of the BBQ turret being obviously apparent to the AdMech who went forward with their own implementation thereof.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Thanks mordoten!

Tiny-Tim, thanks for pointing that out about the SR formation. It seems like no matter how careful I am, a typo always gets through. I'll change that. It should be 250.

Thanks for catching the typos, Dobbsy. I'm not good using Word at all. I'll try to fix them.

No, we had another discussion about the SG in this thread, and we decided that either they all take the field or none of them do. Take a look around page 7 or 8 of this thread. I decided on 450 for six stands, inclusive of the SC. I playtested this unit in my last game, and, as I reported, it felt about right. I'll keep playtesting it, though.

I'll give some thought to the "line of sight" thing, although... I really feel from a fluff perspective, the loss of every single Sanguinary Guard would be devastating to the Blood Angels. This rule also acts as a balancer. You get a very powerful unit, but it's very delicate, and you can't let it die. Ok. I'll give it some thought.

Jimmy, the Infernus is *your* unit! You came up with the rules for it. I basically agree that it is probably redundant in this list. Conversation about it is buried somewhere in this thread, and I included it because no one had any major objections. I can take it out.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

These are my comments on the SG playtest from the previous page:

Putting that aside for the moment, I got a playtest game in with the Sanguinary Guard in against Volrath's Iron Warriors! They performed admirably and as predicted!!! Very pleased with the results. They planetfell in their Stormravens, and along with the Death Company, assaulted the Iron Warrior Reaver Titan and smashed it to little tiny bits! Then they promptly got shot up, the SC, being right on the front lines, promptly died and I had to flee to a corner of the table to keep the unit from being wiped. Ultimate glass cannon!

All told, it was 600 points for the 6 stands, the SC, and 3 Stormravens. Only 2 SRs and 1 stand of SG remained at the end of the game. 3+ armor really isn't all that resilient! But I think the unit did exactly what I envisioned - it's a glass cannon that you have to play very carefully with, and having the SC in harm's way like that is a big liability. Further, not wanting to sacrifice my BTS or wanting each friendly unit within line of sight to take a blast marker, I had to play very carefully with it. And that was the whole point of the "Honor of the Chapter" rule - to force people to play the formation with the reverence it deserves.

Volrath, my opponent, felt the unit was "in the right zone" - not too powerful for its cost.

I'm pleased as punch with the unit and think it's a great addition to the list. I hope others will give it a spin and let me know their thoughts.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

You sure and if so, are you sure I wasn't drinking when we had that conversation?

I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Hellstorm Cannon, not the actual Predator Infernus or if mentioned, as in "we've got stats for it already for you to use". If all the above is bollucks then my bad I agree, it's basically just a name change and +5cm between them.

I'm not saying to remove it, but that if it's in the list, rename it to Baal Predator Infernus with the Hellstorm cannon replacing the twinlinked assault cannons, that's all. Really it's just the name, not the unit.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Sorry - it is indeed possible that I misnamed it. I think the idea was to allow people to take the flamestorm cannon variant of the Baal Predator - which is indeed still known as a Baal Predator.

I'd agree, however, that it's a really granular difference and probably not strictly necessary. If there are strong feelings about it, I'm totally fine with removing it. Although, it could be interesting having a very dedicated short range flamethrower tank.

I we are to keep it (which I am also fine with, and will give me a great modelling excuse), then I'll simply change the name.

And we're still fine with the 20cm range? I'd rather 20cm than 30cm simply because it further differentiates the tank from the standard TLAC Baal Predator. For reference, in 40k, I believe it has the "torrent" special rule, which means that you place the small end of the flamer tamplate (which is about 8" long) anywhere inside of 12" from the barrel.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Yup after pulling some information, err hemmm, off the internets that I shall be sure to delete, and after reading the rule, it would make sense to go from 15 to 20cm UNLESS that rule also happens to be on the Hellhound as well, then they should match distance-wise. I lack the search fu to get that current one I guess.

Yes, please do the name change as it makes my eye twitch

Also after digging, yes the Predator Infernus does have access to the Flamestorm cannon but on review I'm sure the current epic stats went with the Magna-Melta cannon so this also helps differentiate the two further.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

In an offline conversation with Jimmy, the concept of "Martyrdom" came up. He articulated what I am going for with the "Honor of the Chapter" rule perfectly. It fits in with the theme of Sanguinius' martyrdom.

Also, remember - the Blood Angels are not just warriors - they're artists, perfectionists, poets, and philosophers. They're a little more emotional than their other Space Marine counterparts, especially as evidenced by their susceptibility to the Black Rage.

I think they would probably drop to their knees where they stood and weep if the Sanguinary Guard were to die.

Also, it prevents the SG from being played as a suicide bomb. I mean, it could be played that way, but you will pay. Mainly I don't want people to just drop them in, gank a titan, and then let them die. That's what Terminators are for. The Sanguinary Guard require more finesse.

And Jimmy - yes the Hellhound also has the Torrent rule. Is it 30cm? If so, I will change it to match the Hellhound stats.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists