Not really necessary with the spaceship, deathwind, podded formations and scouts though

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NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Right, I'm thinking the Deathwind will help out with BM prep. Thunderbolst are nice, but it's hard to find the points with what I am trying to do here.

I love the idea of the Lander, but I think I'll try running this list for now and seeing how it goes.

Any advice on the best way to run this list?

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

For what it's worth, I've never taken a lander in any list at less than 3500.

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I agree, it seems like a really big investment at the 3,000 points level. I think I'll try to make do with the planetfalling SRs and drop pods.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Had a game against Tiny-Tim BA list tonight using armour heavy Iron Warriors which I won on points in the fifth turn (both rolled 4s end of turn four). I was using this,
Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Iron Warriors (Epic-UK)
==================================================
DEFILER ASSAULT PACK [275]
4 Defilers
VINDICATOR COMPANY [250]
6 Chaos Vindicators
ARMOURED COMPANY [300]
6 Chaos Predator
ARTILLERY BATTERY [325]
4 Chaos Basilisks
STORMSWORD COMPANY [550]
3 Chaos Stormswords
HAVOCS [400]
4 Havocs and 2 Chaos Land Raiders, Warsmith (Supreme Commander)
DREADNOUGHT PACK [250]
5 Chaos Dreadnoughts
DREADNOUGHT PACK [250]
5 Chaos Dreadnoughts
HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200]
3 Fighters
HELLBLADE FLIGHT [200]
3 Fighters
He planet fell every thing except 2 formations of land speeders, he had some bad luck killing my armour with the missiles only killing a few tanks here and there and the spaceship only got one formation. Also the Death company fluffed its engagement on my BTS in turn 1 the overwatch from dreadnoughts saved me I think. He didn't have much at the end of the game but because he was so aggressive I couldn't move forward and being slow I barely got in his half of the table. It was interesting game.

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Ha!! Tell me about being unlucky with the missiles!!!

Thanks for the report, it's very useful. That's been my experience with the SRs, as well! I open fire with expectations of doing at least some damage, and proceed to watch them whiff nearly all of their 3+ to hit rolls. And that's it for the rest of the game! It's been beyond frustrating.

It sounds like he suffered from something that has also been my experience with the Blood Angels list - it often pays to play very aggressively in the opening turn or two, but then the army has little staying power over the final turns. I also have very similar experiences with fluffing engagements vs. the BTS. It's the nature of assault - it's a dice off, essentially.

All-in-all, sounds like a fairly typical Blood Angels game!

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Drop heavy/Stormraven playtest torunament is over I finisehd 2nd with this list!

1. vs Codex SM
My opponent had a Warhound pack (BTS), Tac's in Rhinos, 2x PRed's (A/D), Dev+Dreads in Thawk, 2x Whirlwinds, LS Tormados, and a formation of LR's. So a nice little all-rounder army. I dropped my blood frenzy marines to his left flank (got the LR's, some Whirlwinds), next to his Blitz, and after a lot of engagements I was in control of that half of his deployement zone. But from then, when he recovered his units (And I lost the initiative in the 2nd turn, with the termies teleported just next to the warhounds..), the full infantry army's lack of mobility was a huge drawback for me. The Stormravens worked well, but I still felt they are a bit overpowered -as a stand alone formation, for 250p, they are balanced, but for +50p, they are as cheap as hell. Against RA, they were too weak, and my lack of MW (just in CC, and after the initial attacks, the 15cm speed of the infantry was a big problem..) -at the end, a weak DC ate the LR's in CC -they are a dream CC unit, with drop pods &Furioso's. I like them the most in the BA list now

The result after the end of the 4th turn was 0-1 VP to the vanilla marines -only the DC, and the Dev's worth their costs in this game. The DC is a unique BA unit, so hurray for them! Dev's are available for every SM army, so no new here. Stormravens were nothing special -they were more like a psichological factor for my opponent than a true threat

2. vs Tau third phase

So, 3 units of tetra's/Piranhas, 2x Firewarriors in Devilfish, 2x Railgun Hammerheads with Skyrays, mounted Pathfinders, Orca mounted Crisis suits, upgraded Kroots, and some Barracudas. I never played against Tau's, but they were something like a nightmare for me -lot if shooty guys, and a lot of long range MW attacks, lot of AA/Markerligths -I saw the IG SL list struggling against them, so I was a bit of afraid of this encounter.

I dropped my full army in the middle of his deployement zone, some OB near his Blitz, and the Termies in the first turn -I got the busy Tau deployement zone well, and with the 4 drop pods (4x Deathwinds!!), and the OB, I engaged them to hell. It was a truly blood 1st turn, and at the end of it, ALL Tau units were intermingled in CC, dead, or broken. I just can't say anything else -the DC was a true monster, with the support of the Dev's/Tacs. A true monster of a unit

Stormravens were again good like a unit to prepare the assaults -and especially deadly against mounted infantry. With my luck, I choosed my landing zones well, and got the Tau army between it's screen of scouts and the main units. It was something like the lack of experience (with Tau's) of my opponent -we did not finished the game: 5-0 VP for me after the first turn. I felt that BA's are very good in drop attacks, with their dedicated CC units -especially the DC+ Furioso combo worked well. I can say, they work well against all armies, with a long preparation time!

3. vs AMTL

I hate Titans. I hate them all. I truly hate them. Believe me.

My opponent had only 8 activations -2Plasma/2Gatling armed Warlord, with 2 Characters (1000p, true..), a 2Rocket Reaver, 3x Warhounds, 3x Tbolts. Shit. (in both 3 games, i located the objectives in a very small triangle in the opponents side, to make them concentrate their forces there, and to help me to choose the drop pod landing zones) I concentrated on the Warlord, why not? Let's make some hard work I gotit with my 2 Termies in the first turn, With the Dev's in support. I ripped his shields, halved his DC'S and broke it -with the loss of 1 unit of terimes! Looked well till this point. I dropped my army in the mid/right flank, with the Stormravens on the guard on the other side of the table. A lone Warhound got 3 of the Stormravens, with a lucky shot -they had no chance to unleash their rockets anymore..

So the DC killed a Warhound, and the weak termies finished of the Warlord in the 4th turn -it was broken for 2 turns, with 1DC -my opponent saved all the hits, it was unbeliveable It was one of the epicest Epic games I ever played! There was a real fight for ir superiority -with a lot of CAP's, Interceptions, etc. Against an AMTL army, can you belive it?!

At the end, the termies saved the day, a lone unit of DC and a Furioso was in a hunt for the Reaver, with a lot of support, so it was crazy! I won for 2-1, but just after a lot of mathematics, good moves, and a lot of hard decisions and thinking. My opponent was a true general of his army, so it was a hard time for a list like mine -few MW's, no TK'S -mainly infantry, with 15cm move -against plasma armed Warhounds (with a move of 30cm..).

The Stormarvens died early -with a bad choice of landing zone (for planetfall), but the DC again worked well! I can say, they are usually used in an unimportant role -as they can't claim objectives, they are free to make crazy CC engagements -but they need some support (like Dev's), and some hard hitting power (like Furioso's) to act well enought to worth thier initial points cost.

Playing against RA armies (like the AMTL) it's a real struggle with BA. There's no chance to scratch a battle titan with Stormravens -with their limited, one shot rockets -the void shild is good against them. So, Stormravens are good only to rip shields to help the FF support fire to hit home -but maybe a bit too expensive for that role. So my final advice about them:

-250p for a stand alone unit is OK
-50p for a transport upgrade is OK -but with a limitation of what type of units they can't transport. Mainly Assault Marines -to compensate the assault marines (IMHO) expensiveness. They are a bit too strong with Scouts -but if the Scouts doesn't have any ranged firepower, they can be as they are now. So, They the Scouts shouldn't have a ranged fire to keep the Stormraven option. Tacticals /Dev's /Termies should loose the Stormraven transport option. Scouts/Assaults (DC Assaults/Dreads) should be the only units they should transport -to be something like a dedicated assault gunship +if stand alone, to keep them a dedicated AT unit, as a weaker flying LR.

Just another thing -thank Sanguinius for the DC guys

Any opinion about these thoughts?

My immediate thought is that the SR should be able to transport any infantry the BA player wants, not just Assault/DC. Otherwise you pigeon hole too many people's wishes and make the list one-dimensional.

No surprise BA against the Tau... Especially if the player is inexperienced with them - heck even when you are it's a struggle.

Also, I hate Titans too. This is a problem for any list that has no real counter to multiple titans. Termies are few and far between.

Thanks so much, Pati. This is a veritable treasure trove of playtest data.

I'm really glad to see that you fared so well with the Sons of Sanguinius. It sounds like you took a list that could have been taken before I took over as AC of the army, but I am hoping that the reduction in the cost of the Dreadnoughts and SRs were the difference that helped give you an edge.

Am I correct that you felt the army was balanced on the whole? It sounds like you had to work really hard in your games (except in the match vs the Tau). I think that's the sign of a balanced army - when you can win, but it doesn't come easily.

Sorry, but limiting what the SRs can transport isn't on the table. I'd like to keep them analogous to their 40k counterparts as much as possible. Let's playtest them a little bit more. I'm still of the opinion that 50 points apiece as a unit upgrade is the right cost, but if that turns out to be incorrect, I'll consider making some changes. Can you explain a little bit about why you feel they are underpriced at 50 points apiece?

If the assault marine formation is too expensive, that's a separate issue entirely and something we should talk about. I feel like this discussion came up a bit earlier in the thread. I agree in a nebulous way that the BA Assault Formations aren't as good as they should be for such an iconic unit, but I am at a loss as to how to make them more useful. We tried the teleporting idea, which met a lot of resistance and didn't prove to be the answer in any case. I suppose I could consider a small points reduction, but I seem to recall convincing arguments being made that they are indeed priced appropriately. I'm open to thoughts from anyone who cares to contribute on this.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

The above discussion about the assault formation got me thinking - I don't actually think we came to a resolution regarding the cost of the Assault Formation. Shall we open the discussion again?

I'd just like to throw this out there -

The Astartes Assault Formation is 175 points for 4 stands. However, I don't think you can simply divide 175 by 4 and then multiply the result by 6 to get the cost of the BA 6-stand assault formation. I think that the astartes are paying a 25 point premium for the activation. A sub-200 point formation has a value all its own that a points premium should be attached to.

Hence, if we take the base cost of 4 stands of assault marines and call it 150, dividing that by 4, we get 37.5, and multiplying that by 6, we get 225. Now, do we attach a 25 point "activation" premium to a 225 point formation bringing it to its current cost of 250? I'm genuinely asking. I'm struggling with this a bit. I'm inclined to think not. 225 for the BA 6 stand formation "feels" right to me, and I think would encourage their use a bit more.

Because, if you notice, in all the recent discussion of playtest lists going on lately, no one (other than me) is including them in their lists (and even I am shoe-horning them in there). I think this points to a problem with the utility of the formation at its current points cost.

What do you all think? Worth considering reducing the cost of 6 / 8 stand BA assault formations to 225/ 300?

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Sounds good! There should be lots of assault marines in a BA army!

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I think a 25 point premium is a large assumption to make just to make your new points formula...

Have you considered just letting the BA use the 4 unit Assault formations and building up with upgrades instead? You can put a lot of them on table for activations then as well. Give the option, sure but you don't need to have large assault formations just because the BA favour Assault formations. Imagine a list with 10 assault formations for 1750 + other units? (14x plus DC and SC and 3 Chaplains...)

Also, I used the 8-strong in my game and plan to use them again.

Aye 4 unit assault Marines would be interesting to see first

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