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White Scars

 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:21 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 03 2004 Mar.,00:51)
Good use of ranged weapons V ! ?And I say play 40K for a laugh ! :laugh: ? And you are correct Mojarn, eventually you have to go toe-to-toe if you're going to capture an objective, but I'm sure you and most will agree, if you use ranged weapons properly, it will be easier because most of the enemy will be KIA/WIA ! :laugh: ?And you got that right Rico ! ?Epic is real wargaming ! }:) ?And as Tas and i/drax said ?Heinlein is real SF !!! ?I still have my copy of the book, but I'm not sure where our copy of the game went !!!? ? ????

Played my first game of 40k 3rd ed the other day, I played 2nd ed a decade ago and enjoyed it.

3rd ed sux... I positioned my entire army on a hill and just blew away the attacking speed freaks, when they finally got into combat my marines just wouldn't die. Then I counter attacked with some assault marines and slaughtered the Orks.

There was no tactics, no nothing, it was a souring experience, V40k all the way!!!! Dawn of Darkness WOOO!!!!

At least you have to manuever and use small scale tactics in those game systems. In DoD we never managed to have a CC yet there was plenty of manuevering going on :).

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:27 pm 
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So Tom ... you think 40K suxz !  And you like Epic ...  ???

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:32 pm 
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Going off topic a bit, but I don't really have a problem with the dominance of CC in 40K. If we had Power Armour and the SM to wear it, we'd be using their tactics. CC breaks units a lot faster than firepower. The rest of the 40K system I do have a problem with (sequence of play, assault move, too many super weapons etc.), but that's for another thread.

As for the White Scars, those bike units seem way over powered to me. 3+ CC, same as an Assault Marine AND +1 attack? I know bikes already have 3+ CC but I always thought they should have 4+, same as regular marines.
A suggestion has been to make them 1st strike instead of extra attack.


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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:42 am 
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Quote (Agent Brown @ 05 2004 Mar.,22:32)
If we had Power Armour and the SM to wear it, we'd be using their tactics. CC breaks units a lot faster than firepower.

CC also induces more casualties than firepower, a tradeoff that realistically I think anyone would hesitate to make.

While I have not tested the White Scars list (I'm still learning the E:A rules) I do believe that 2 3+ CC attacks for each stand seems a bit overpowering, especially with such a low cost.

Perhaps we should raise their cost accordingly, and give them a discount on other bikes as to show their preference towards them?


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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:57 am 
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Well, I don't know. I suppose if we regressed socially to the level that the Imperium as a whole is at, then we'd do much the same.


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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:57 am 
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I have to strongly disagree with all of you - C/C dominates 40K because the kids that play it like it and it sells. ?Firepower has always produced more KIAs then Close Combat weapons from the ACW on. ?If you don't believe me, look it up. ?My previous military career and knowledge of history, weapons and tactics makes your statements inaccurate. ?Troops wear body armor today and rarely ever use a bayonet or knife (I know). ?Most 40K players try to rationalize the C/C dominance of 40K, but in reality it is an argument that has no basis. ?That being said, play 40K and enjoy it, but don't tell me it reflects any eventuality in the real world ... ? :;): ?However, your comments are true within the paradigm of the 40K rules. ?:)

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:55 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 06 2004 Mar.,04:57)
I have to strongly disagree with all of you - C/C dominates 40K because the kids that play it like it and it sells. ?Firepower has always produced more KIAs then Close Combat weapons from the ACW on. ?If you don't believe me, look it up. ?My previous military career and knowledge of history, weapons and tactics makes your statements inaccurate. ?Troops wear body armor today and rarely ever use a bayonet or knife (I know). ?Most 40K players try to rationalize the C/C dominance of 40K, but in reality it is an argument that has no basis. ?That being said, play 40K and enjoy it, but don't tell me it reflects any eventuality in the real world ... ? :;): ?However, your comments are true within the paradigm of the 40K rules. ?:)


I agree that while firepower causes more casualties, an assault is the most effective method to clear an area of the enemy.
Of course, since the mass introduction of firearms, an assault is really a close range firefight with any hand-to-hand fighting being very rare and the IG in 40K and EpicA are a good example of this style. I should have made this clearer in my original post.
Genetically engineered supermen with near invulnerable armour would be a bit more 'gung-ho' in their approach and make a more direct use of their physical advantages over us mere mortals. ?
40K does not mirror current military tactics and doctrines as it has to cater for these supermen and other equally formidable creatures. This is not my problem with it. It is the system itself I don't like much and EpicA has been a breath of fresh air.
However, apart from two years as an Army Cadet in the UK, I have no military experience and bow to your knowledge. Nothing worse for a military man than an armchair general, so I've heard. :D

Back to White Scars, even a First Strike seems too much and now simply giving them the Walker ability to represent their years in the saddle seems enough to me.


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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:47 pm 
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I see ... you clarified your point and I agree with you, for the most part. And I didn't mean to be insulting or pompus.  And yes E:A is very refreshing especially when compared to 40K.  But even "Gung Ho" types - Paras, Rangers, Marines, etc. (I know because I fell into that category, along time ago) will use fire power both indirect and organic to take an objective (ie: kill the enemy).  And it is much, much easier to draw down on a target and service it with a ranged weapon then it is to stick it with a blade or beat it to death with a blunt object ... regardless of what is seen on T.V. or in a 40K game.   And I'm in an armchair now with a wireless keyboard, so I may fall into the "Armchair Captain" category !  :laugh:

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:39 pm 
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Hi!

Warfare has been a constant change from close up and personal to far away and impersonal. In ancient times there was no better way  to slay the enemy than come up close and stick your sword in him. As arrows got better, then stand and shoot became dominant. In response better armor was made, but gunpowder has made armor obsolete. The trend has continued until today, but armor is making a comeback, as technology increases and better materials are made who knows that we may come back to the days of close and personal and sticking swords (or power swords) into somebody is the quickest most efficient way of combat.

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:05 pm 
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Well, not that sci-fi has ever been a great source of technological wisdom, and I definately see where you're coming from, L4, and would more or less agree - I can't see anyone (well, very few people) today who would run in with a knife over shooting any kind of firearm.

But I'd say that it's partially due to the fact that armour doesn't effectively protect against firearms (well, it might, and if it does, then my argument is half moot), and that firearms aren't disdained as a weapon of war.
So two factors would need to arise: a) that armour is able to protect against firearms, and b) that close combat is once more seen as the ultimate expression of prowess and honour and suchlike. The latter is pretty much true in the 40k world, especially in terms of the Space Marines and their opponents of similar levels, and I would say, in that world, the former is also true.

It also brings to mind Dune, wherein laser weapons would react with energy shields to cause massive explosions, and I think prjectiles moving at high enough speeds would be stopped by the shields, and so one had to use hand weapons to duel with opponents. Now, as I said, sci-fi isn't necessarily an indicator of how things will be, and I think that unless we find some vastly more efficient way of armouring someone effectively against firearms, few people are going to rush in to use swords any time soon.


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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:56 pm 
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I don't know about you, I wouldn't run into a fist-fight knowing that my armor had a 1/3 chance of actually doing something... :)

Back to White Scars talk, has anyone tried any variations in-game that they think would be better?  Or are we all just sitting here testing the current list and talking about it (as well as shooting vs HTH  :p).


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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:34 pm 
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I have decided not to archive this topic, as it related to an Epic list which may well change or disappear.

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:55 pm 
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OK, On one of the other threads we have started to discuss rules systems we like to borrow from. I thought it was interesting enough to have it's own thread. So, Dirtside...

I like Dirtside quite a bit. It is not perfect, but does have a lot going for it.

Has anyone tried Fist Full of TOWs?

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:11 pm 
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Off the top of my head ... SM1, SM2, E40K ... we've taken most of our previously SM1 based rules and took a little from SM2 & E40K ...  :)

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 Post subject: White Scars
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:18 pm 
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I actually bought FFT quite recently. It is a nice system, and got a thumbs up just from the authors notes of borrowing c&c rules from 40K and firepower from the original Epic! I was not so sure about the game initially, but I like it more and more now.

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