okay, added regular terminators back in to the list, also added clarification about automaton units contesting objectives and limited minimum size of trenches, razor wire and minefields to 2.5cm to hopefully reduce abuse

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I figured that once a unit leaves the bunker they lose the fearless. This would play nicely into keeping the IF formation in the bunker as they should be (they're trying to repel the enemy not charge out after them) if they want to stay fearless and harder to winkle out. There wouldn't be much room for a counter charge anyway would there? What's a bunker hold? 2-4 units? Are the enemy assaulting the bunker or the troops? Bunkers are WE, right??


I always imagined they'd have "sally forth" elements in reserve too. My theory (when I was looking at designing a list) about the IF was always that you'd hold two objectives in your half with a solid bastion/defense line etc (here's where the replace an objective & attach trenches etc idea came in) built around those objectives (say, the blitz and a single T&H) and hammer the other side of the board with your sally-forth element/reserve or use your reserve to counter attack enemy forces attacking your defences. It was just a theory of course and now you've already written a list

hey, I asked the community what they wanted, and I'm working on developing a list that plays as asked, AND can actually win games and be fun too

I'm just carrying out the wishes of the majority man....

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Hey no issues here. I was just describing what I had planned originally. I always figure the more brainstorming the better. Even if none of it is used.

I know, I was just joking around

I'm pretty chuffed with v0.3, hoping to get half a dozen playtest games in over the summer with it, if we can get a few other reports, with no glaring balance issues what are your feelings on moving from experimental to developmental? I'm in no rush but it would be nice to have a target to aim at....

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I'm sorry I haven't contributed much to this, but I am watching it with interest. I think you're doing really cool things with this list, and doing the yellow marines proud. I will try to get some playtest games in with them this summer.

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Sounds like an interesting list - certainly different to codex marines without dullness everyone complains of with siege masters. IMHO, sounds much more interesting than blood angels ha, anyway, hope to give it a try sometime.

Fearless in fortifications sounds like a good solution - but should only apply to units actually IN the fortifications IMHO.

Thanks, look forward to the results of your testing



I agree, I just feel this makes them very very static and vulnerable to being clipped.... we'll see how the buffs in v0.3 help out, I'm trying unit balance at the moment, going to test fortification heavy builds later in the summer so will have a better idea by then



No worries, you've got enough on your plate with the Blood Angels! playtests much appreciated, if we can get results from a few groups, I'm hoping Dobbsy and Steve54 will consider moving the list to developmental

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Had a game tonight against NetEA red corsairs.... lost 3-0 on turn 4 (bts, blitz, t&h)

I sallied out far too early and probably should have just castled up on overwatch, me having average to poor luck while dptdexys had exceptional luck (as usual) probably didn't help, also the red corsairs list is hilariously over powered but that's a circular discussion for another day that I can't be bothered to have right now

I think most of the list is fine from a points/balance POV, I just played it a bit poorly, that being said, it's certainly veering into siegemasters-boring-as-hell territory......

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IMO as a defensive list its about good to go
- turrets are good at area denial. Even in games where IF have got battered its been very difficult to break into the turreted areas. I'd suggest giving the Hyperios an AT shot
- Centurions, Fellblades, bastion etc seem fine

List works as I'd imagine SM defence - not standing in lines in trenches but funnelling enemy with turrets and then counterpunching.

I'd suggest doing a twin list with IF siegebreaking

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Thanks for the thoughts Steve, you've been a great help with playtesting and you didn't take all those notes in vain, I'm just resting my hands as much as possible at the moment, trying to get this RSI-induced tendonitis to go away

I think I'd like to develop a more codex-style IF list, I like the siege element, and having bunkers, trenches etc will be great for themed play and narrative games, it's just boring and not really how marines work, sitting around in trenches, for me I'll probably always prefer to play them as you say, block off areas with turrets to funnel the opponents, then counterattack

I'm not sure how much call there is for a siegebreaker variant, I'm tempted to write an IF list more along the 'codex marines with extras' sort of route as apart from the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists are normally held up as exemplars of the codex astartes.... maybe as a fanlist, maybe as a companion list... we shall see!

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If you're writing companion, non--tourny files I'd like to see an alternate scenario to the GT. I think 90% of the issue with particular armies being "boring" is more that they are boring to play with in the GT than the army itself being boring e.g. the theme of the army is fundamentally at odds with the scenario being played (see AMTL for the poster child of this). I think you're good to go with basic testing structure for the IF as is and baring any weird combos, should be able to be validated for Developmental in short order.

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are you volunteering to play a few games then JZ?

I'm pretty happy with the overall list structure, I think more testing is needed with the siegeworks, also the centurion formation could do with a bit of playtesting to see how it performs

for a more codex-aligned version, I'd probably base it on the codex list with centurions, achilles and assault terminators, keeping spacecraft and thunderhawks, more aligned with the fluff....

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Wow, it's interesting to see everything come full circle like this. Kyuss, have the developments with the Blood Angel list influenced your thinking at all? It seems like we're all sort of coming to the conclusion that, at the end of the day, marines are marines.

Having said that, however, I do think things can be tweaked to make them work in interesting ways, but, yes, it probably would require more playtesting to balance than any of us really have the time for.

Also, I don't mean to derail the thread, but could you briefly explain how the Red Corsair list is overpowered? I am genuinely curious as I don't have any experience with or against them, but I do have a Chaos army that I'm debating whether or not to use as Red Corsairs or Black Legion. If you feel it more appropriate, feel free to PM me.

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partly by that, partly my own feelings, partly from the black templars and also from the EpicUK lists which are all based on codex marines with variant units in and tweaks for balance, as you say, marines are marines!!



I'm quite happy with how the IF list is now, balance wise, it needs testing but I think we've hammered out a good list for the siege defence theme, I just think we've veered a looong way from the codex and like blood angels and ultras, IF are staunch codex adherents, so should we rename this list the 'Codex Marine planetary taskforce' and develop an imperial fists list with less of a siege focus and more based on the common toys the fists make use of? I'm easy either way but will probably write the codex style list anyway as it's more likely to be adopted by epicuk that way



I don't want to go into great detail, and people have playtested and enjoy the list, but basically they felt like the best bits of chaos and loyal marines mixed together, you have cheaper terminator air-assault options, inspiring warhounds WTF? thunderhawks are almost better without ATSKNF as they can only fly off with 2 blast markers rather than 4 like the loyal equivalents, the larger formation sizes make the 'trigger assaults with warhounds with stuff in support' even nastier, especially when warhounds get inspiring.... they have deathwind on their drop pods, which makes assaults even more painful when daemons can be summoned.....from a fluff POV they shouldn't have warhounds IMO they're a renegade chapter with a few thousand dudes and marine kit....not a legion with tens/hundreds of thousands and their own traitor titan legions, plus ten thousand years to make allegiances and whatnot..... but these arguments have been made before....

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