We have this FAQ:



As it's written, you can't use Leader off board. Do people play it this way?

And amusingly enough, it implies that you can't use teleport, tunneler, etc off board too.

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Dave

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Umm I see what you mean; the FAQ states you may use the abilities to "affect the *Activation* of the formation that they are in".

Personally I have always played it slightly looser (out of ignorance of this detail) allowing *all* abilities that affect the formation that they are in - so a Leader may be used to remove an extra BM when the formation rallies off-table (as might be the case inside an air-transport), Tunneler, teleport etc also work for the formation that they are in, so are still permitted as well.

Indeed, they only restriction really is that the SC reroll cannot be used on any other formation while his formation is off-table. Would it be better to remove the reference to "activation" in the FAQ?

This work?

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I think listing every special ability that can be used is not the most future proof way - and if you have to say teleport can be used when the rule itself says so, we're giving the FAQ a little too much credence. Likewise if you have to say that slow n steady can be used, then you also have to say transport, planetfall, and whatever race specific rules might be relevant.

Personally I would rather it just say something like "units may use their special abilities when off-board to directly affect their own formation - they have no effect on other formations, whether on or off the board. For example, an off board space marine tactical supreme commander may use his re-roll when his own formation activates or rallies, but may not use it to rally or activate a formation on the board or a thunderhawk he is being transported within."

Or even just FAQ the rules that CANT be used as it's a far smaller list, i.e. supreme commander, farsight

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Agreed Kyrt. So I think I would re-word the FAQ as follows

The 'Note' can be expanded as appropriate to contain any other specific abilities that need to be restricted in this fashion.

I agree with Kyrt, naming a list of which rules may be used opens up potential for future missunderstandings



I think this is a good solution. Just one exception though (higlighted in blue). I thought an airfcraft transport and it's transported formation is considered as one formation until their activation is completed. The SC reroll would therefore be useable on the thunderhawks activation. I guess the last part could just be stricken out.

I have wondered the same thing myself, but my interpretation inferred from what other people have played is that this only applies in the context of shooting or fighting an assault with the transport:

3.1.3 Transport War Engines

Formations that dismount in this way may not take an action in the turn they dismount, but are allowed to either shoot or fight in an assault if the war engine that was transporting it is able to shoot or assault. In both cases, the war engine and the transported units are treated as a single formation until the shooting attack or assault has been resolved. The war engine and the formation that disembarked are treated as being separate formations once the war engine has completely resolved its action.

It doesn't say that formations merge with their transport formation when they mount up, rather that they count as a a single formation in the specific cases of shooting or assaulting. If they did count as one, it would be undefined which formation's initiative to use, no? Auto-retaining initiative 1+ black guardians in vampires ahoy!

This also came up in the recent thread about the overwatch vs dismounting formations FAQ, but I too would like to see how others play it as it personally annoys me that my autarch in vampire loses both his initiative and his re-roll

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IIRC this has been discussed years ago. I have always understood that formations inside Transports *may* attempt to rally as there is nothing in "1.14.1 Rallying" that limits this to the on-table forces (indeed the Necron lists rely on this). As Kyrt notes, all formations are separate unless they are taking part in an assault, so at this point they rally separately.

It is worth noting that it is the Transport that tests to activate and until it is successful, the contents are separate from the transport. Under these conditions we (UK) allow the SC reroll to be used if it is in the troops being carried by the Transport. So perhaps the following amendment could be used;

Summoning affects the formation, but you can't use summoning off board.

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I'm not familiar with summoning so forgive a potentially stupid question, but why not? Or rather, would there be ill effects from allowing them to? For instance, I see no harm in letting someone use "commander" when off board, but if it can't actually affect anything then it is pointless to do so. Thus it doesn't need to be explicitly forbidden.

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Hmm, at first I was also thinking 'why not', then realised that Daemons have to be summoned *before* the activation roll. Since they don't have teleport this would run foul of those rules, and summoning would run foul of space restrictions in Drop pods or aircraft, so I think Dave may be right - though it is not clear either way.

However "Commander" may not be used (or is irrelevant) because the other formations have to be within 5cm of a unit in the commander's formation, which they obviously are not. For this reason, Eldar 'commanders' cannot bring other formations out of the webway etc, and I think this has been FAQd (or if not, it should be).

My point is, let's not worry about making rules about things that have no consequence in the game. Hence I am asking if there are potential reasons a player might want to summon daemons whilst off the board. The examples you give are reasons why players won't want to summon daemons because to do so would be pointless (although BTW I'm not sure they are real examples because in all three cases they would in actual fact be already on the board anyway - teleport happens before the strategy phase, drop pods land in a prior activation, and if in an aircraft then it is the aircraft that is activating). But even if you did summon before you teleported, it doesn't help you, so surely there is no need to forbid it? [I have no idea if there are other reasons, I don't play chaos].

Likewise with commander, the reason I used the example is because commander has literally no effect if you use it off board because there are no formations within 5cm. Thus, no need to explicitly forbid being able to use it offboard. It is however fair enough to FAQ the fact that other offboard formations don't count as being within 5cm, so it was probably a bad example for me to have used.

Other examples: there's no need to say that commissars can't use fearless, inspiring or invulnerable save, or that terminators can't use reinforced armour and thick rear armour. Obviously they have no effect. In fact, if ever it would be possible for those special abilities to have any effect off board, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to use them. (Here's the part where GW invents a super duper weapon that can be shot at all the enemy's reserves ) To be fair, I'd probably say the same about summoning demons - if they could use webway portals I'd probably let them summon before they came through one.

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Fair point, I agree that we should keep any examples relevant to those abilities that might have an effect rather than those that are irrelevant. Commander is pertinent to explain the 5cm point, and I suggest that off-table Daemon summoning may be misunderstood and so need to be clarified - eg a reduced formation in an air-transport may not summon daemons prior to the transport declaring an assault even if there is sufficient space to accommodate them. This is because it is the Transport that activates, not the formation it carries and Daemon summoning is part of the activation process.

Off board Commander has been queried before, I believe it was asked if it could be used to take 2 or more formations through a webway (as the rules state "count as 1 formation") and similarly could an off board commander be classed as within 5cm of formations that where within 5cm of the webway.
Summoning off board has occurred in a couple of battle reports IIRC due to chaos T/hawks.
So both could do with including in any FAQ.

Thanks re the summoning, do you have any more info about that? Summoning happens when the formation itself activates right, so this wouldn't normally be possible?

Either way, like you say, if it's come up in games then it probably deserves an FAQ. Still, as I understand it it's not specifically about the topic of this thread (i.e. being off board) but rather about the interaction of summoning and WE transports - the same situation could arise on the board. So a separate FAQ about summoning or WE transports seems most appropriate.

Likewise both of the questions about webway would be good to go in an FAQ, either here or its own Commander or Webway FAQ. I still think it'd be better to be clear that it won't work because neither the on board nor the other off board formations are within 5cm, rather than because the ability is on a "ban list"

Either way, a mention of both in this FAQ as being indirectly relevant can't hurt if there are only a few such examples.

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