Mattman wrote:
Yes jump pack troops are that fast.
Jump troops can move 12" and then charge 2d6", so a maximum of 24", average of 19.5.
Normal move they go 12" and run d6" (but can't shoot or charge), so a maximum of 18", average of 15.5".
Bikes can charge the same (12"+2d6").
Normally bikes are slightly quicker than jump troops, 12" normal, plus a 12" run/turbo, but can't shoot or charge.
Vehicles can move up to 12" and still fire some weapons or 18" going flat out. They can't technically charge, they just tank shock or ram anyone they come into contact with.
Wow, they really are all that fast. That may be justified then.
Mattman wrote:
Assault Marines haven't been able to ride around in Rhinos since Rogue Trader, 2nd edition stopped all that, again its has been this way for 20 years. And even then GW have pretty much retconned that out of the 40k universe with Forgeworld producing all their legion stuff.
I went back and checked the transport rules, it isn't the jump pack rules, it is specific rules for rhinos and razorbacks.
Jump pack troops are bulky (as are terminators) and rhinos/razor backs are not allowed to carry bulky troops. In other transports the bulky ability means they take up 2 spaces (which means that a land raider can only carry 5 terminators, but we haven't even got to that discussion.
[In Armageddon they have been playing true to the fluff since release. Assault Marines move 30cm, Bikes, 35cm , Rhinos 30cm. Assault Marines can't be carried except in specific fliers. Terminators take up 2 slots].
I actually have the 2nd and 3rd edition rules around here, let's check that. ... As it turns out, neither 2nd nor 3rd editions restrict Assault Troops from using Rhinos or Razorbacks. To restate that, in both 2nd and 3rd editions it was perfectly legal for Assault troops to be considered normal infantry for Transports. Yes, I've checked under Vehicles for their Transport rules, under Jump Packs, and even under the entries for the Assault Troops, Rhinos, and Razorbacks themselves. If you have a book and page number that contradicts that, I'd be more than happy to go looking (for books from 2nd or 3rd edition 40K). Thus the change must have been in 4th edition or later. Admittedly, I don't have the Codex Space Marines for 3rd, so it could have been in there, but there is nothing in the base rules for 3rd.
Thus during 2nd edition Space Marine/Titan Legions it was perfectly valid for Assault Troops to use Transports as any other Infantry, as that is how it was in 40K at the time. Still, primarch has always been saying that Net Epic Platinum would be updating to the newest fluff, so updating them shouldn't be a problem. Let's just not keep exaggerating how long this has been changed.
It does not surprise me that Epic:Armageddon has been doing it that way all along, as E:A is based off of a much later version of 40K.
Mattman wrote:
Basically troops with jump packs are one of the quickest things on the battlefield barring fliers, its has been this way for 20 years.
On a 40K scale battlefield, perhaps. On an Epic one, no.
Mattman wrote:
The bonus that bikes have over assault troops is they are harder to kill, they have increased toughness and get a cover save when they move (basically an invulnerable save), the cover save is even better if they turbo (might be a good improvement for them, give them a 5+f save if they move).
Now that is an interesting idea. Give them a bit more flavor.
Mattman wrote:
Vehicles are actual quite slow when it comes to moving about a battlefield, they are meant to be for transporting troops over long distances (for which jump troops hitch a ride on a flier).
30cm was the maximum I was thinking about giving them, 25cm or 20cm might be more appropriate, but I would still not want them carried in rhinos.
As far as I am aware, the main reasons to put troops in a Transport in Epic are A: to get them further onto the battlefield faster, and B: to protect them a bit as vehicles have an armor save and troops don't. Admittedly, NetEpic changed that up a bit by giving Marine troops an armor save, and if the Assault troops get faster then they would have no need for using a land-based transport at all. So after a point, the discussion becomes moot.
As much as I still somewhat think that an ideal system could cover both the old and newer ways, Platinum may as well just have the new stuff and people who want to play the old way can still use Gold. It just means that these people won't be able to play together. Pity.
Mattman wrote:
Dropping the jump packs may make them weaker vets, but then there is a cost associated with using vets, one which I have discussed on other threads is that vets are to cheap currently.
Veterans also have other abilities that Assault troops don't have, so their cost is higher anyway. I actually applied the suggestions made in the Army:Space Marine thread to Veterans, and the points cost I calculated takes those into account. Including having a special "Veteran HQ" unit.
Mattman wrote:
If people are hung up on this issue, it will be fun when I reveal the rest of the marine list

(land raiders carrying 1 stand or terms, vanguard veterans, centurions!, whirlwinds getting a shorter range).
You have a morbid idea of fun.
Mattman wrote:
I suppose one way of simplifying and avoiding all this would be to do two lists. A"Golden Age" version based on the original and gold lists and a modern era one but both with updated points. I was hoping to avoid going down that route but given the massive differences between how marines were in the early 90s to how they have been for the last 20 years it might be unavoidable. I guess as long as the points system is accurate across both versions, it would still be fair to play them against each other.
While there could be two lists, it would probably just be better (and certainly simpler) to just update Platinum to the newest rules and let the people who want to play the old way play Gold. It would be nice if we could somehow get everyone to be happy under one rules-set, but it's probably just not going to happen. As mentioned above, it has not been 20 years. Possibly 10 (I have no idea when 4th was released) or a bit longer, but not 20 by any means.
Your final point is a good one. Having two lists could be feasible
IF they both used the same unit points determination system. Obviously, any difference in stats for a unit will result in it having different costs on different lists, but that would be expected. As an example, you mentioned above that the Range on a Whirlwind's weapon would be lower. This will have to adjust the cost of the unit.