An increase to speed because of having Jump Packs? Sounds more like Flight Packs than Jump Packs. Are Assault Marines in 40K now really as fast as a Land Raider (20cm) or a Rhino (25cm) in Epic? In my opinion, if the definition of the ability is changing, it should either affect all factions equally or be renamed. In any event, they should not be raised to 30cm as then you would be eliminating the use of the Attack Bike (Cavalry). Even raising the Assault squad to 20 or 25 would reduce the Bike's usefulness.

Saying that they cannot be put into Vehicle-class Transports but then saying they could be put into a Thunderhawk is self-contradictory, as a Thunderhawk is Vehicle-class. It just also happens to be a Flyer. It might perhaps be simpler to say either:
A: they now count as "heavy Infantry" and can only be placed in Transports as per Terminators; or
B: they now count as Walkers (for interacting with Transports only), and thus require two spaces in a Transport.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Actually, come to think of it, there is really no reason we cannot have both. That is, we keep the 'classic' Assault Marines as is (Move 15cm, Jump Packs, can use Transports as normal Infantry) and have the modern (Fast Assault or Heavy Assault perhaps; 20cm move, Improved Jump Packs, & either counts as 2 squads for Transports or cannot use Vehicle Transports at all). If preferred, the older could be renamed to Light Assault or 'classic' if the modern version should have the base name of Assault. There is no reason to invalidate long-time players' armies just to bring in new people when we can keep both.

Another reason to not remove the Jump ability and reduce Move to 10cm that I just realized is that they then become weak Veteran squads. Their usefulness would be practically eliminated. Just a couple of thoughts.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I think the middle point for the assault troops is increase their move +5cm (with attendant cost increase), for a 20cm/40cm move, but retain their transport usage but at a transport cost similar to dreadnaughts (meaning only one assault stand per rhino). In other words it cost 2 transport slots.

That way they can use any transport with no major rule changes and modern as well as legacy conceits are maintained.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Yes jump pack troops are that fast.

Jump troops can move 12" and then charge 2d6", so a maximum of 24", average of 19.5.
Normal move they go 12" and run d6" (but can't shoot or charge), so a maximum of 18", average of 15.5".
Bikes can charge the same (12"+2d6").
Normally bikes are slightly quicker than jump troops, 12" normal, plus a 12" run/turbo, but can't shoot or charge.
Vehicles can move up to 12" and still fire some wepaons or 18" going flat out. They can't technically charge, they just tank shock or ram anyone they come into contact with.

Assault Marines haven't been able to ride around in Rhinos since Rogue Trader, 2nd edition stopped all that, again its has been this way for 20 years. And even then GW have pretty much retconned that out of the 40k universe with Forgeworld producing all their legion stuff.
I went back and checked the transport rules, it isn't the jump pack rules, it is specific rules for rhinos and razorbacks.
Jump pack troops are bulky (as are terminators) and rhinos/razor backs are not allowed to carry bulky troops. In other transports the bulky ability means they take up 2 spaces (which means that a land raider can only carry 5 terminators, but we haven't even got to that discussion.
[In Armageddon they have been playing true to the fluff since release. Assault Marines move 30cm, Bikes, 35cm , Rhinos 30cm. Assault Marines can't be carried except in specific fliers. Terminators take up 2 slots].

Basically troops with jump packs are one of the quickest things on the battlefield barring fliers, its has been this way for 20 years.

The bonus that bikes have over assault troops is they are harder to kill, they have increased toughness and get a cover save when they move (basically an invulnerable save), the cover save is even better if they turbo (might be a good improvement for them, give them a 5+f save if they move).

Vehicles are actual quite slow when it comes to moving about a battlefield, they are meant to be for transporting troops over long distances (for which jump troops hitch a ride on a flier).

30cm was the maximum I was thinking about giving them, 25cm or 20cm might be more appropriate, but I would still not want them carried in rhinos.

Dropping the jump packs may make them weaker vets, but then there is a cost associated with using vets, one which I have discussed on other threads is that vets are to cheap currently.

If people are hung up on this issue, it will be fun when I reveal the rest of the marine list (land raiders carrying 1 stand or terms, vanguard veterans, centurions!, whirlwinds getting a shorter range).

I suppose one way of simplifying and avoiding all this would be to do two lists. A"Golden Age" version based on the original and gold lists and a modern era one but both with updated points. I was hoping to avoid going down that route but given the massive differences between how marines were in the early 90s to how they have been for the last 20 years it might be unavoidable. I guess as long as the points system is accurate across both versions, it would still be fair to play them against each other.

Just has an awesome thought. If we decide a two list system is better, then we can call the army list based off the old cards the "2nd Age" Army List as a nod to the origins from 2nd ed Space Marine!
Not sure what I would call the modern army list, "Modern Age" Army List sounds a bit naff.

Wow, they really are all that fast. That may be justified then.



I actually have the 2nd and 3rd edition rules around here, let's check that. ... As it turns out, neither 2nd nor 3rd editions restrict Assault Troops from using Rhinos or Razorbacks. To restate that, in both 2nd and 3rd editions it was perfectly legal for Assault troops to be considered normal infantry for Transports. Yes, I've checked under Vehicles for their Transport rules, under Jump Packs, and even under the entries for the Assault Troops, Rhinos, and Razorbacks themselves. If you have a book and page number that contradicts that, I'd be more than happy to go looking (for books from 2nd or 3rd edition 40K). Thus the change must have been in 4th edition or later. Admittedly, I don't have the Codex Space Marines for 3rd, so it could have been in there, but there is nothing in the base rules for 3rd.

Thus during 2nd edition Space Marine/Titan Legions it was perfectly valid for Assault Troops to use Transports as any other Infantry, as that is how it was in 40K at the time. Still, primarch has always been saying that Net Epic Platinum would be updating to the newest fluff, so updating them shouldn't be a problem. Let's just not keep exaggerating how long this has been changed.

It does not surprise me that Epic:Armageddon has been doing it that way all along, as E:A is based off of a much later version of 40K.



On a 40K scale battlefield, perhaps. On an Epic one, no.



Now that is an interesting idea. Give them a bit more flavor.



As far as I am aware, the main reasons to put troops in a Transport in Epic are A: to get them further onto the battlefield faster, and B: to protect them a bit as vehicles have an armor save and troops don't. Admittedly, NetEpic changed that up a bit by giving Marine troops an armor save, and if the Assault troops get faster then they would have no need for using a land-based transport at all. So after a point, the discussion becomes moot.

As much as I still somewhat think that an ideal system could cover both the old and newer ways, Platinum may as well just have the new stuff and people who want to play the old way can still use Gold. It just means that these people won't be able to play together. Pity.



Veterans also have other abilities that Assault troops don't have, so their cost is higher anyway. I actually applied the suggestions made in the Army:Space Marine thread to Veterans, and the points cost I calculated takes those into account. Including having a special "Veteran HQ" unit.



You have a morbid idea of fun.



While there could be two lists, it would probably just be better (and certainly simpler) to just update Platinum to the newest rules and let the people who want to play the old way play Gold. It would be nice if we could somehow get everyone to be happy under one rules-set, but it's probably just not going to happen. As mentioned above, it has not been 20 years. Possibly 10 (I have no idea when 4th was released) or a bit longer, but not 20 by any means.

Your final point is a good one. Having two lists could be feasible IF they both used the same unit points determination system. Obviously, any difference in stats for a unit will result in it having different costs on different lists, but that would be expected. As an example, you mentioned above that the Range on a Whirlwind's weapon would be lower. This will have to adjust the cost of the unit.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Interesting points you both make.

For the sake of "solidarity", I would prefer two lists based of the same points formula,so both lists could play each other (or in unison) and still be balanced.

As Magnus says, if they are based off the same formula, the same unit would cost different things in accordance to what you get. This is reasonable and expected. Players can choose which "flavor" to use.

There is no need to artificially create a division with this, since a unified points formula evens the playing field. Whether a unit can transport 1 or two stands or not be able to use it because its "faster" just would transfer the cost around (to the stand or away from the transport or the other way around). You could even use the two different types of assault marine in the same force if the points formula was the same.

In any event I suspect that those whom are old school enough are not paying attention to this much, those that are would welcome the update. However a points formula is interest to all and easily applied to any version for people to use (or not) regardless of the philosophy to which the stats are modified.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

If there are two different lists, then any given army (IE, a player's force) should be entirely from one list. In my opinion anyway. If players are freely able to choose any units from either list to construct their army from, then there really aren't two lists at all. Still, even if armies are limited to just being from one list or the other, they would be able to be used against one another regardless of list used. Assuming the same valuation method was used anyway. It's rather like having Standard and Codex lists. One cannot freely intermix units from both.

For the new or 'modern' list, it would probably be simplest to create a SA called "Heavy" or "Bulky" that when applied to an Infantry means that it takes up twice as much space in a Transport. Initially, this would apply to Assault Marines and Terminators, and should probably be applied to similar units as well (Grey Knights, Chaos Terminators, Raptors, possibly Ordo-Malleus Inquisitors as their Save is inline with Terminator armor) in accordance with the current rules and fluff. This would have to adjust the cost of the unit in some way, as it cannot fit in Transports as easily. Probably a slight discount to their move/type value.

Actually, such a SA would not have to be limited to Infantry. There may be Walkers that are larger or bulkier than others and thus take up more space. Vehicles as well for Dropship use.

Primarch, I often have difficulty understanding what you are trying to say. For example: "Whether a unit can transport 1 or two stands or not be able to use it because its "faster" just would transfer the cost around..." is very confusing. A unit with Transport would have to specify the number of squads/stands that it can normally carry. Any exceptions to that should, IMO, be detailed on the unit that is the exception, rather than on the unit with Transport. The speed of the unit with Transport is not relevant to how many it can carry.

I'm not quite getting the "2nd Age" reference, and yes I know you explained it. Perhaps better for the old-inspired list might be "Classic". I'm not quite sure what to call the modern list aside from "Modern", though perhaps "Current" might do.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

For some reason I thought you didn't like the two separate lists idea, but if you think its fine, its fine with me as well. Two separate list it is then.

What I meant about the costs "transferring" was if you made an assault stand that moves farther and requires no transport, wouldn't the cost be similar to that of the lesser (original) assault unit that needs a transport once you added the rhino cost in? Seems you just "transfer" the cost of the rhino transport to the better and enhanced abilities of the assault stand, correct?

In any event if two separate list is better lets do that.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Hi!

As for names, classic/traditional and Current/modern would be good enough.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

I've gone back and forth about having / not having two lists, so that is understandable. Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd prefer to have just one list with lots and lots of options (which could get overwhelming) or one list for each "era". I was just stating my opinion that IF we have two lists, then any specific army should only be able to pull from one list or the other.

Slightly clearer, but not a lot. No Infantry unit "requires" Transport. Still, you seem to be wondering if the cost of an Assault squad with Move of (for example) 30cm would be the same as an old Assault squad plus a Rhino. Let's find out. A Gold version Assault squad is currently 35.5 points before Morale adjustment. Modifying the stats on that by doubling the Move to 30cm and adjusting the Jump multiplier to 1.4 instead of 1.5 (to represent a minor cost decrease due to counting as two squads for Transport), the 'modern' Assault squad costs 47.2. Since a Rhino currently costs 32, that plus the old is 67.5 versus the new at 47.2, so it's not even close.

Two lists would make army construction simpler, as if there was only one list it would have to have a humungous number of options available for each formation to be able to apply to both the old and new ways of doing things. Probably so many options that the casual gamer would pass. Having two lists means that while each list can have options, each one only has to cater to that version's rules and fluff. Thus each list will itself be easier to construct, and will be easier to use.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Okay, I ceed the point that the vehicle rules back then don't prohibit assault marines from being carried by them, but what did stop people was the fact that you couldn't actually buy a rhino or razorback for them to use, they never had it as an option.
In Codex Space Wolves for 2nd edition on page 58 the entry for the Blood Claws (assault squad) lists their options as bikes or jump packs, the other infantry Hunters (tactical) and Long Fangs (devastator) have the option of taking a rhino (or land raider for that matter ). This set the groundwork for vehicle restrictions.
In Codex Space Marines for 3rd edition on page 12 the entry for assault marines has no option for them to take transports, whereas the other infantry can, tactical p10, vets p9, devs p14.



Codex Space Wolves came out in 1994.
Codex Space Marines came out in 1998.
So the vehicle restrictions started appearing 20 years ago and where fully formalised 16 years ago.



That is what I thought and it doesn't just apply to marine bikes, any bike or jet bike follows the same principle.



Maybe People always have lots to say on these forums so I am sure the points will generate some very healthy discussion.



That is most probably the crux of the matter, as much as an all encompassing book that can cover many eras would be wonderful for some people the volume of content it might drive people off. But then it isn't just the Marines, do we do a similar thing for the other armies? Port the "Gold" lists into platinum as is with the new points and then do an updated version of each for the "modern" era?
Looks like I am going to be busy for the next few years

Looking again at my 3rd edition 40K rulebook, I can see where in the descriptions for Tactical, Devastator, & Veteran squads it does mention options for Rhino & Razorback, but those are conspicuously absent from the Assault Marines. Fascinating. While there is nothing specifically stating that Assault Marines cannot use transports, the option just is not available, which basically means the same thing. Odd logic there on GW's part. So we were both right.

Unfortunately, I don't have either of those Codex (not sure what the plural for Codex is), so I cannot check that. So I'll trust you on that. Personally, I wouldn't say they were "fully formalized" in 3rd, but that's mainly semantics. As far as I can tell, there is nothing stopping a 3rd edition player from buying a Rhino individually and putting the Assault squad in it. It would probably cost more than buying it with the squad, but it could be done. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure why I'm still going on about this, so I'll stop here.


From what I can see, there would have to be individual lists made for 'classic' and for 'modern' for any Faction which has had it's rules and /or fluff change significantly since then. While I'm not all that familiar with the current rules (or fluff even), I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate as to which Factions will need lists of which type.

Squats would probably be the only Faction that would only have a 'classic' list. As far as I'm aware, there are no rules (or fluff) for them in the modern game.

On the other side of the coin, there are a few Factions that would probably be safe to only have a 'modern' list. These would be the ones added recently. Specifically: PDF, Sisters, Frateris, Necron, Tau / Kroot. I doubt that there are many people with established Gold armies for these, and even if there are, the differences between what Gold has and modern are likely minimal. I could be wrong though.

The remaining Factions have been around (nearly) forever, and are likely to have players with established armies that would be difficult to change. These will certainly need two lists, assuming they have had changes since then, which I'm guessing all have had. Specifically: Chaos, Eldar, Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus / Knights / Titan Legions, Ork, Tyranid.

There should be little to no work that you (Mattman) have to do on any 'classic' lists (except possibly formatting), as I will be including formation costs for the NetEpicGold formations as I write up each faction in the other thread. Other than figuring out costs, they are done. Frankly, the details for the 'classic' formations would not even have to be in Platinum at all, just a note saying that Gold stats & formations can be used in Platinum IF the Points Value Formula (or whatever it winds up being called) costs are used.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I like Magnus' suggestion that, aside costing units with the new formula, the traditional formations need not be in platinum.

I like the idea of including that in net epic gold along with errata.

I would like platinum to be "its own thing". I'm really looking forward to apply the formula to "updated" versions of unit. For example I really do like the idea of an assault stand not needing rhinos and moving quickly.

I also like the bike ideas. Anything that differentiates a unit is welcome.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Hi!

Mattman is there anything I can do to help you with formation formulations (creating or formatting)?

I'm trying to maximize my output for as long as my free time holds out.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules