Hi,
Hoping the community can help me out on a couple of rules questions for tournament play as I have now played about a dozen games and feel I have a handle on the basics.

a) The first objective maker placed by each player, does that objective have to physically be touching there own table edge? I find this a little restrictive so was wondering if that is the rule or if there is more leeway in placing that first objective.

b) Break Their Spirit victory condition. If the formation worth the most points is an aircraft formation (such as a large ork fighter bomber formation or a space marine landing craft), is this formation actually considered THE formation for the Break Their Spirit victory condition? In order to claim the victory condition in this case, does the aircraft formation need to be completely destroyed or does that fact that an aircraft unit that disengages in the end phase and is off the table at the start of the end phase affect it's ability to be considered the Break Their Spirit victory condition formation?

c) Assaulting from an aircraft on a ground attack action to perform an air assault (such as an Ork Landa or Space Marine Landing Craft), my question is if a target unit is "protected" by a screening units zone of control, can it ignore the screening units zone of control if it lands/barges (because it is a WE) into the target units zone of control and units only? Example 1: unit of manticores are on table edge with screening unit of sentinels. Sentinels are 12 cm away from manticores so zones of control do overlap but sentinels zoc does not overlap any manticore units. There is enough space for landa or landing craft to land on/in manticore unit and deploy transported formation without any of the formations being within the zoc of the sentinel unit. Can they do that?

Example 2: same as above but sentinels are 6cm away from manticores so zoc for sentinels does overlap manticore formaiton. Does the air assaulting landa or landing craft with accompanying formations have to assault the sentinels or can they assault the manticores? Since there is 6 cm between formations they not considered intermingled.

d) In a counter charge during an assault, units that are mounted in transports and counter charging, when/how do they move?
Options
1) transport unit counter charges 5 or 10 cm depending on movement rate and THEN embarked units dismount and are placed within 5cm of transport vehicle (per rules1.7.5 and 1.12.4)
2) transport unit dismounts embarked units first (within 5 cm) and then each unit counter charges 5 or 10 cm depending on their respective movement rates (per rules 1.7.5 and 1.12.4)

Looking for any guidance on these situations.

Thank you.

Paradox

BTS is the most expensive unit on the board, not in the army. This prevents shenanigans where you keep your BTS in reserve to prevent destruction.

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Rastamann,
Thank you for the clarification regarding A and D.
I appreciate your answer to C and agree with you but was wondering if there some something in written down where it had been dealt with and agreed upon by the community?
Regarding B, the Break Their Spirit question, I looked at section 4.3, it would seem to imply that you need to be a on the table at the end of the turn (not a spacecraft or off-board) the goals are calculated. This would make units in reserve or aircraft that are not landed not count for BTS purposes. It would imply that you could have a space marine landing craft land on the last turn and count as your BTS.

Thanks

Andre

It's gets weirder when you have the Necron bouncing on and off board, which is why they have a special rule where their BTS counts as destroyed if it is off board.

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A scout screen does not prevent an aerial unit from landing in multiple zones of control.
This conversation has been had many times over the years and there are many (understandable) different points of view.

In both examples in the original post, a Landa/Thunderhawk etc, could land and engage the Manticores.
As per FAQ's:

A new FAQ has been worded (edit - I should say that the original Scout Screen from behind FAQ will stay and a new FAQ covering this particular problem has been formed) and voted on by the FAQ rules committee (with pretty much unanimous agreement). This FAQ will be available when all the FAQ's have been updated and presented to Dave.

Scout screens are more effective in preventing teleporters getting to vital formations. This is a game mechanic that prevents the free move of teleprting giving too much advantage (edit - this also works with planetfall units having to move out of a ZoC, it is an elegant and simple solution to an otherwise gamey problem).
Flying a plane in is not a free move. It has inherent dangers in CAP, AA fire, Overwatch (failing to activate in the first place) etc, that are game mechanics designed to make it more difficult for aerial units to use the advantage they have.

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There are FAQ that answer most of these questions here

a) The BTS (and all objectives) are usually defined as a single point on the battlefield, though they are represented by a marker of some sort. In the case of the Blitz, this point is deemed to be on the table edge. However in the 5 min warm up you can agree to treat the entire marker as the objective. This does make it slightly easier to measure distances, and has little overall benefit to either player.

b) The BTS objective is gained by the destruction of the most expensive formation on the battlefield. Spacecraft are an exception because they do not enter the battlefield. Aircraft and other off-table units do not count for similar reasons. If the most expensive formation in an army is detained off-table and the next largest is destroyed, then potentially the BTS objective is achieved. Note the Necrons have a slightly different rule on this.

d) The player may choose the order that the units countercharge, so option 1) is correct.

c) You are correct that in Example 1. If the Landa can barge the manticores out of the way without entering the ZoC of other enemy units, it may assault them. In Example 2. If the screen covers the target, RAW the Landa may not assault the Manticores. The issue described by Onyx arises over the use of scouts whose ZoC is 10 cm and presents the issue you describe.

IMO this is unnecessary and regrettable, though expected.

RAW would also lead to a Scout screen from behind prohibiting the engagement of the nearer formation. Hence the need for an FAQ.

We really need to understand that the Epic Armageddon rules were not written in as clear a manner as we would like. Once we understand that, we can move on and clarify what we can, to make the game fair and fun.

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Yeah this is how I have understood it as well. But lets say player A kills the most expensive formation on the board gaining BTS, but then the opponent, player B, moves a more expensive formation on to the board from reserves. Like for instance teleporting in a terminator formation with a character.

Does player A then loose achieving BTS? I asume the answer is yes since the achievment of victory objectives aren't constant in epic, but can be "unachieved" from turn to turn.



I though aircraft did count if they were destroyed while on the table and if they are the most expensive formation. No?

Objectives do not have a "memory", they are assessed at the end of the third and subsequent turns. So the player may have achieved one objective at the end of the third turn to find that they no longer have it at the end of the fourth. In this case the player would have achieved "BTS" at the end of the third but not at the end of the fourth.

Aircraft etc do not count when they are off table, but would possibly count if destroyed on table. Also, where there are several formations of equal value, the BTS goal is achieved by the destruction of any of them - which is why it is recommended that there be only a single BTS formation.

This is the situation that caused the original FAQ at the heart of the debate, and which is also flawed. *Any* unit directly behind the target formation can project a ZoC beyond the front of that formation, albeit only by a few millimetres. The FAQ was *only* intended to allow the chargers to get to B-B under these precise conditions.

Allowing an air assault to disregard the ZoC of scouts causes many more issues than it solves. For example, why should scouts be ineffective under an air assault by a WE, yet be able to stop a larger titan assaulting through their ZoC?

functionally there is no difference between the two..... I really can't see it, the only difference is the directionality aspect of the 'screen from behind' rule, and as an aircraft landing vertically has no direction, then essentially all scouts are 'screening from behind'



This is a fair enough point, but not what is written in the rules and master FAQ

I agree that it's simpler for event organisers not to be unpicking complex situations and rule disputes every 5 minutes to stop air assaults into multiple ZoC, but it's not written in the rulebook in black and white

The air rules are terrible anyway

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I really don't want to open a can of worms here (but I suspect I'm going to anyway!) but I'm only just starting to use the air rules myself so this is pretty relevant to me.

It seems fairly clear that you can't enter the ZOC of a formation that isn't the target of that assault. I really don't see what the issue is That rule should stand whether the other ZOC is projected from the back, side or wherever, particularly with regards to air assaults that could be coming in from potentially any direction anyway. The FAQ here states that units must try to leave the additional ZOC if possible, the only time they can still go into base to base contact with the target is if the are unable to escape all enemy ZOC which sounds like a fairly unlikely situation?

Or am I missing something obvious?