I was wondering, Is the jury still out on whether units that negate BMs (grotz, shields, gaunts, deamons etc) still get BMs for disrupt?

It seams fairly settled that shielded units do indeed negate disrupt, but what of the others?

From my experience there always seems to have been a lot of confusion on this question, with different players ruling one way or t'other, sometimes with different rulings for different kinds of units...

From the FAQ

"Shields and Grots negate the BM caused by their destruction."
Hmm should a grot survive, by a cover save for example, could this be read as they *do* therefore get the bm from disrupt?

might explain why some folks have told me my saved grots/gaunt need to take the BM, maybe.

Despite that - the FAQ does state explicitly they don't take the BM it would seem

That is how it was agreed by most in previous discussions and how it is usually played at E-UK events.
Units that don't normally cause a BM when they are lost still don't through disrupt.
Units that don't normally cause a BM when they are lost but survive a disrupt hit do cause a BM.

Reasoning for above, if a unit dies there's nothing to disrupt, if a unit survives there still a unit there to be disrupted.

They don't take a BM on their destruction is stated in the FAQ.

The grots rule only states that an ork formation containing at least 1 ork unit do not take BM's for grots that are lost, not that the grots ignore BM's

ok so in the FAQ the question: "Similarly do hits on Grot units by Disrupt weapons cause an additional BM?"
is not actually answered (emphasis mine), the reason being that the word the language can, just about, be interpreted variously.


so far


if destroyed by an ordinary hit - you get a BM normally but this is ignored
if destroyed by an disrupt hit, well you'd get a BM whether it's disrupt or not, disrupt is irrelevant in the case of destruction, only survival - but anyway, the grot ignores the BM

nothing to talk about as yet

When we talk about disrupt we talk about a BM being given if the unit is simply hit, not just destroyed.

So in the answer: "A: Shields and Grots negate the BM caused by their destruction. This means that they do negate the BM inflicted by Disrupt"

The first part of the answer talks about destruction, so disrupt irrelevant. The second part follows on for the first, using that first part's logic, asserting that because a unit doesn't get a BM when it dies, it therefore doesn't get a BM inflicted by a Disrupt - without explicitly explaining what 'inflicted by Disrupt' means.

if 'inflicted by Disrupt' means 'inflicted when because the unit is hit, not because it dies" then the FAQ would clearly states the grot will not get a BM whether it survives the hit or not.

However, as mentioned the grot rule only talks about killed. So the word Killed can be used, strictly, to counter the reading of the FAQ above.

So one is in contention with the other depending on how you choose to read what is written.

My own feeling is that the intention of the grot rule (and similar) is meant to say that these units just don't get blast markers in combat (except for reasons of not having enough non grotz/synapse whatever). The rules successfully explain this in terms of the normal shooting (and assault) rules - where, you only get a BM for a kill, but do not explicitly address any special rules, such as disrupt, where you get BMs for other reasons.

in the absence of any addressing of special rules it can easily be argued that BMs are only negated for kills.

But I don't think that is the intention, and I think the FAQ is trying to back that up with the slightly woolly "This means that they do negate the BM inflicted by Disrupt"

With a simple reading it's clear you quickly come to the conclusion that you don't get the BMs. It's only when you say 'hang on' and start to inspect and pick through the words closely that you are able to start to question your initial conclusion

Something else to add to the list of FAQ's...

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I'm reading the question in the FAQ wrong though aren't I?

Q: Do hits stopped by Shields still cause an additional BM if the weapon had the Disrupt ability? Similarly do hits on Grot units by Disrupt weapons cause an additional BM?

if 'hits' means 'kills' then the question is:
"When I grot unit dies it doesn't pick up a BM. I'm just checking, if it dies from a disrupt then does it still ignore the BM?, does the grot rule still apply?"

if 'hits' means 'kills' then the question is not at all asking about the situation of when the unit survives at all, which is where the disrupt rule is special

Is that all the question is actually asking?

Or does hits mean hits. Because disrupt causes a BM on a hit, not on a kill.

The question raised revolves around which units are affected by casualties and Disrupt. Disrupt is worded in terms of "Hits" whereas the Grots rule is worded in terms of "casualties".

The Grots rule describes the reaction of Ork units to the loss of Grots - basically the Orks do not care (that is what Grots are for !! ). However, if the Grot unit actually survives, it becomes 'disrupted', so the BM is applied.

ok gotcha - the grot rule applies to kills only. thanks matey

I always thought this is a bit of an odd FAQ, or even wrong with respect to the original intention, but it really can be read either way.

For me, occasions when a hit is negated should not get disrupt BMs. So, holofields, which in my mind *should* work by making you miss when you thought you hit. In all other occasions you should get the BMs because of the disrupting effect on the formation of the weapon detonating (or whatever) in the middle of it. BMs affect formations, not individual units. You could say then that void shields, gaunts and grots should therefore still get BMs. The fact that those have no saves is nothing to do with the weapon after all.

Of course it's not an exact science (eg a miss could arguably still disrupt a formation), and it's pretty academic anyway - I don't play it "my" way because it's not the accepted interpretation. Its just the way I wish it worked In particular, the wording of the void shield rule uses language like "stops a hit" I seem to recall.

However I am not convinced about the FAQ as it pertains to grots. The grot rule is specifically about what happens when a grot is killed because it is about the effects on morale. And that is what the rule says too. The BMs for disrupt have got nothing to do with kills, so whether the unit dies or not is irrelevant. I think it all depends on whether you think Disrupt should be interpreted as:
1. "if a unit dies add a BM for dying, and if it is hit but survives add a BM for disrupt"
Or
2. "if a unit is hit, add a BM for disrupt, but don't add another if it dies"

The latter just seems more logical to me, and you also don't have to come up with some convoluted explanation why you get a BM for surviving but not for dying. But if it was clearly supposed to work this way, BMs for disrupt and kills would be additive.

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Hopefully my grotz in cover will fail their saves from any disrupt hits ...

According to a previous post from Nealhunt

from this thread,
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19239&p=370388&hilit=disrupt#p370388

I've found over the years a lot of players have mis-read the "grot rule" to be grots don't take BM's which is wrong.
The so called "grot rule" states that in a certain situation (when a grot dies and there are other ork units still in the formation) then the BM is negated. Grots take BM's normally but, as with the note in their stats, the formation they are with doesn't receive a BM when they die.

That special ability coupled with Nealhunts confirmation, posted above, shows that grots that survive a hit from a disrupt weapon still get the BM but it is negated by them being killed.

On a related point - if a unit receives a mixture of normal and disrupt hits should they be allocated and saved for separately? In the case of grots and orks you'd want to allocate the disrupt hits to the orks to avoid taking any from saved grot hits. I suppose what I'm getting at is that you shouldn't pool the hits and save them together or you could just say the first x saves we're normal hits increasing the proportion of failed saves that don't generate extra blast markers...

I've been fielding tau recently and you can often roll piles of AP shots that are mixed.

Please re-read the above post and the grot rule,the BM is only negated if the grot dies if it survives it still takes a BM.


Most players either keep the hits separate or use different coloured dice to keep track of them.
The rules state the defender allocates the hits as they want, whilst sticking to the allocation rules. Some play where the abilities of hits are maximized, ignore cover on units in cover,lance on RA and so forth, but that is not in the rules.

Ok, right - I've had time to process now. Grots still generate BMs, they just also negate one if they die and orks are still alive so it will never make a difference...

Thanks for clearing up allocation.

Edit - actually it would make difference. If you allocated two of each type to two grots and two boyz and only the grots survive. If the grots were allocated disrupt hits the formation would take 4 BMs in total. If they'd taken the normal hits, only 2 BMs would be generated due to failed saves not generating an additional BM. That's right isn't it or am I going mad?!