And on the Eldar side, the initial setup is crucial to defend against exactly such attacks. So

• Place Ranger screens around the more vulnerable targets,
• Deploy Guardians and aspects surrounded by their transport (which pops up when assaulted - reducing the attackers to FF attacks).
• Make sure that formations are close together to provide withering support fire
• Consider intermingling formations deliberately if necessary to make them tougher to assault.
  The extreme case is to "castle" where a group of formations is bunched up together to make it a much tougher target to assault and a smaller target to hit with an orbital Bombardment - though this does make such attacks more devastating if they do hit . . . .
• Use Wraith gates judiciously to keep a few formations out of harms way as reserves and deep strikes
• Deploy under a good AA umbrella (Falcons with FireStorms) - and if using the E-UK lists, consider using a formation of Fire-Prisms for the Lance AA that can pick off THawks as they fly in
  etc

Thanks guys, good info. I already experience lance weapons when they beat four shades out of an entire colum of predators Stilll won though....

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Walk softly. And carry a big gun.

The needing to play air to do well with SMs used to be the case but honestly since the 2012 tweaks to the list ground SMs are similarly competitive IMO. I mostly play without air (often without Warhounds too) and win more than I loose, see this list here for an example. I've just been using the Codex Astartes list too, there's no need to switch to a variant list to play ground SM unless you particularly want to.

I like to upgrade my infantry formations with 1 Razorback (which, because it doesn't sufficiently carry 2 stands doesn't reduce the number of Rhinos you get and the Razorback can be at the front and can die without slowing the formation down. I wouldn't pay for 4 Razorbacks and so many extra Razorback, you're better off shaving off points here and there and getting one more formation in there.

What are you doing with your Supreme Commander formation? With the Dreadnoughts it's slow so I assume you're garrisoning it as a Blitz Guard or forward on an objective? It'll do alight at this, but I wouldn't risk my Supreme Commander further forward and I'd probably save buying Dreadnoughts for a blitzguard, just Rhinos plus perhaps a Land Raider is enough and more flexible if they do need to move.

The list is pretty flexible though and just experiment a bit and see what works for you. Hopefully your opponents will get the hang of the game in time, shooting sets things up but EpicA is really won and lost in assaults. Your Eldar opponents should run some Guardians (or Aspects) with Wave Serpents and perhaps a Warlock and get stuck in more.


Just to add to this, it's the first barrage template that is plotted. You then place the other one touching the first wherever you like, so you get some control.

The SC formation is purely sitting on the blitz, and there to add support/psychological war. For some reasons my opponents have all fixated on Blitz. I think it may be because every game I have taken blitz in the last term so they seem to throw troops at it, its almost like the Somme. The Dreads are only there because a) I love them and b) they add fire support to mow down the formations running towards me.

I may take your advice about the razorbacks. Could use another assualt formation, I find them very very useful.

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Walk softly. And carry a big gun.

Marines in THawks and especially with a Spacecraft provide the greatest Tactical flexibility as they can be used in a variety of ways. In the E-UK list they also allow "Superior tactics" where under certain constraints you can swap the mode of transport prior to the start of the game (ie after the terrain is set, but before objectives placed), which brings out this flexibility even more.

Regarding Devastators, Razorbacks are really worthwhile, and Devs in 3 (+Rhino) or 4 RBs make a cheap but powerfull suppression force. Mounted in Land Raiders they are even more powerfull.

As a static (or Drop Podding) force Dreadnoughts are a good addition to Devs, and a Hunter enhances the survivability of the armour as well as providing good AA cover.
(an aside here - AA is primarily needed to place a BM on any air assaulting force giving the defender a potential +2 in the assault resolution. Knocking the enemy out of the sky should be considered a bonus, though less likely )

There are a lot of other combinations of formations or upgrades that can be used - half the fun is in working out your own style of play and the army lists to suit this.

if you're just guarding the blitz with it, I'd suggest dropping the supreme commander formation down to a devastator one, more firepower and 50 bonus points to spend on other things, if you add a hunter it should still be your BTS too (especially with 100 points of dreadnought bolted on)

I'm not saying ground pounding marines can't be effective, but they have the tools to be devastating in air assault, by not using them you're missing out on a big aspect of the list, pulling off a timely air-assault can rip the guts out of your opponent's force (I played against Steve54 last night, and wiped his BTS supreme commander unit out on the first activation of T1 with air assaulting terminators....)

I've found that assault marines + devs in a thawk are quite underwhelming, not enough macro attacks, and not a huge amount of regular attacks either

I'm busily painting up a bunch of las razorbacks at the moment, I'm keen to have a couple of units of scouts with them as I think garrisoned twin lascannons will be quite tasty....

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Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Scouts garrisoned in 4x Razorbacks can prove a resilient trip-wire force.

And for air-assaults, my favourite is Terminators + dreadnoughts + Chaplain in a Landing Craft. Yes it does cost 850, but with a THawk to follow up "it kicks" as they say

Lance does nothing extra to predators btw - they don't have Reinforced Armour.

Watch out when your opponents get wiser

I find that using Eldar you really want to be on the offensive if possible, dictating where the action happens. It is also a common theme with the army, that their formations are fantastic when you are maximising their strengths, but collapse when they're on the back foot out-manoeuvred. For example, guardians. They can be extremely good value for money when assaulting with wave serpents in front. The serpents force firefight but still absorb the hits - all of a sudden your terminators don't look so good. Likewise the addition of 3 units - wraithguard - hugely improves their utility, transforming an incredibly vulnerable unit with no saves into 4+ RA. But only if the Eldar player dictates the positioning.

In fact, I'd go so far to say that terminators are not particularly great in terms of actually beating Eldar in assaults. More often than not you only get to roll 4x3+ FF attacks, and whilst you might not lose any/many units in reply, it's very easy to lose the roll off when the numbers of kills is low, you only have 4 units, and are likely to have BMs form teleporting. They are still worth taking, but mainly for the psychological effect. Or sustaining. Neutralising a formation of falcons or aspects can be very useful.

Basically, with Eldar, if you aren't assaulting and sticking your skimmers between you and the enemy, you're doing it wrong


Regarding your list, I for one like ground pounding marines, including whirlwinds (psychological warfare) and vindicators (up close punch much needed vs Eldar). I would probably go a bit lighter on the upgrades and aim for another activation instead.

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You should really send your Eldar opponents a link to this thread, there's a lot of good advice for them here too and the game will be more interesting and tactical if they play to the strengths of the list and game more.

Sounds a bit like you are in a similar place to us after a few games when we started playing. With no local experienced players we found the game really unsatisfying - i now realise because because we were trying to play like sm2 or 40k.

After 6 months hiatus we picked it up again after reading up on some tactics and bat rep pages. i would recommend having a good read (you and your opponents) to see how the meta game works. With some background of the tactics and counters we are now loving it!