but they can also fly theirs on to counter that.

it is just stupid that a CAP can only intercept a ground attack and not an intercept. there is no logical reason why it would be the case.

I believe that CAP should be allowed to target any air action that isnt Stand Down, but that it should not get the +1 to attacks that Intercept does, so as to give people a reason to use the Intercept order aswell.

Otherwise, it just becomes a game of chicken.
Say, in this hypothetical situation both players have fighter aircraft. One player, has three formations, one of which is a 4 plane lightning wing that he paid a lot of points for, specifically to intercept the other players aircraft, and provide air superiority for his bombers. The other two are marauder formations. The other player has only one regular thunderbolt formation (presumably because he isnt using an air-focus heavy list like player 1, and probably has access to ground flak)
Player one guy puts his interceptor formation onto CAP so as to protect his vulnerable drop troops from the enemy plane, and provide fighter support to his bombing run. In response the opponent puts his onto CAP aswell. now in the current rules as written, those CAP planes are completely useless. by placing them "on patrol" and providing non-ground based flak, he has effectively lost the ability to actually protect his planes. At this point the first guy can either send out his remaining aircraft formations on a ground attack and get ganked (and his CAP has effectively stood down) or he can stand down his other Aircraft, and noone gets to use their fliers at all.
the only way he can infact get to attack his opponents planes, is if he throws one of his marauder formations to the wolves, drawing out the enemy CAP and allowing a regular intercept onto the target.

another hypothetical turn. Again, the guy has his dedicated interceptor squadron, and his two marauder flights, vs his opponents solitary thunderbolt flight. This time, however, he does not put his lightnings on CAP, because he knows if he does, he will not actually get to use them. His opponent, knowing that there are three aircraft formations against him, puts his thunderbolts on CAP.
at which point, the same situation is in effect. the player with the majority of aircraft can either stand them all down, or throw one of them to the wolves in a hope of drawing out the opponent CAP so that an intercept order can be taken.

No matter what he does, the person who spent more on aircraft finds himself at a disadvantage, specifically because he did so. that's stupid.

the CAP-a-CAP rule, however, would allow this player to actually use his aircraft as they're intended, allow players to take protective flak that is not ground based. and let planes use their AA attacks with the same degree of flexibility afforded to their ground based counterparts.

the ability to use CAP-a-CAP encourages large air battles, and makes larger formations of aircraft less of a liability. It also bypasses one of the most stupid abstractions in the rules, whereby aircraft on patrol can respond to some aircraft, but not others, and more importantly, other aircraft are unable to respond to them at all, because of no reason.

and yes, it does favour the person with more aircraft. the air combat rules SHOULD favour the guy with more planes.

If you wonder why bomber formations arent very popular, i'd suggest that this would be a big part of it. bombers already suffer against artillery by not being able to sustain on their targets (thus forcing their to hit value to be at best 4+/5+ no matter how big a barrage they may have) making them also lose their air support just makes the issue worse.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

My list was

Regi HQ+Hydra
2xMech Company+Hydra
2xTank Company+Hydra
2xStormtroopers+Valks
2xThunderbolt Squadrons

So yes, I realize I'm below the "recommended" activation count by quite a bit. But I never really cared too much about that. Not really a competitive guy, I just like having fun sending tons of tanks and infantry into battle to try and kill stuff. Yeah, I really should have gone for more TK stuff. Couple of Shadowsword platoons instead of the Mech Companies. But what are you gonna do? I had a real blast playing Jagged and to me, that's all that matters. Plus I learned not to run straight into Advancing range of an enemy titan without being able to shoot at it yourself! Good stuff, that!

In your scenarios that disadvantage for the player with more flyers is only for that turn, he should then be able to intercept the CAPing formation post CAP and then have a free rein. IMO all that cap-a-cap does is result in more and more aircraft being taken and increase the power of air assault (particularly elder) neither of which are good things.

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Yes there is. It's so airpower does not become a major focus of the game, in a game where airpower is a minor focus.

Hey Kim,

Excellent report mate, can you tell me what program you used to create the maps mate?

Cheers
Aaron

no it doesnt

Turn 2, player with his lightnings and two bombers has exactly the same situation as described in the part of the example where i explain that if he doesnt have his lightnings on CAP, all he can do is throw a unit of bombers out there, hope that the opponent doesnt kill them all with his CAP, and then use intercept to kill them.
what if he only had one formation of bombers? he sacrifices essentially all his air power to neutralise his opponents air power. again, disadvantage goes to the player with more aircraft and/or bombers.

imagine, for instance, that you could only shoot at formations that are on overwatch if they had first shot at you. that is essentially what the current CAP rules are. once a formation is on CAP, it is assured of being able to complete its interception run unmolested by aircraft flak (but again, not ground flak, futher diminishing the reason to include aircraft at all)

there is already a natural cap (excuse the pun) on the amount of aircraft that can be taken, in every list except marines. Marines, as always, get to do whatever the **** they want, but I do not believe that the CAP-a-CAP rule would in any way result in massed aircraft reliance. Ground flak is still in most cases, better. it's usually harder to kill, it can function against any target it wants, and can shoot at multiple aircraft formations in a turn. it usually has longer range, it can shoot at disengaging aircraft, it can contest and claim objectives. and it' almost always cheaper too.
it would reduce the effectiveness of the forces that take a bunch of ground flak and one formation of aircraft vs the effectiveness of those who take more intercepting formations, but only in relation to that. (in much the same way as taking a lot of shadowswords currently favours the player when fighting titans, but doesnt favour them much when playing against an ork swam army.) but it seems to me that the aircraft rules should favour the person with the most planes, not the other way around.
at the moment, there is a lot of ground flak, and very little use of aircrafts, except for air assault, and the occasional harrassment of broken troops or laying blast markers to prep for usually air assault. the use of bombers is very small, and the aircraft rules do not reflect the manner in which aircraft fight.



that is a very strange sentiment from someone who refuses to consider making marine armies follow the same 33% restriction on aircraft that everyone else does, because doing so would unfairly limit the amount of aircraft a marine list can take (in conjunction to their many titans of course)

it is possible, at the moment, for a player to take a warlord titan, spending a significant number of points and impacting largely on the way both his and his opponents army plays. it's distressing to see how titans have become a major focus of the game when they should be a minor one. maybe we should make it so that titan formations can only attack non-titan formations if those formations have first fired upon the titan that turn. to help bring epics focus back to the purity of its original roots.



Hey Cal
Maps were made using the Vassal module. I can send a few links your way if you'd like

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

Yes mate, that would be great.

Cheers
Aaron

If you could email the vessel links to me...(data files)

Closest epic player is two and a half hours away