Hi,

A quick question that popped up during last nights game:

When a formation is offboard, waiting for deployment via Webway, can it then take an action other than entering the game via the portal? More specifically, can it take a 'Hold' action, thus stalling for time?

If it cannot take an activation to hold, how and when does it declare that it does not enter play in a given turn?

Separately but related, if a formation in reserve in the webway fails its activation roll, can it then choose to remain offboard (and Regroup) or must it move onto the board? If it must move onto the board, what happens if the gate is inside an enemy ZOC? If it may remain offboard, is the gate then considered "used" for that turn, or can another formation in reserve try to activate and enter later the same turn?

The way we play it in this neck of the woods is that if an activation is passed for a formation in the Webway/Portal it has to move out of the Ww/Portal as part of its move. If you don't want to activate any of the formations in the Portal then you can confirm that a specific formation is not activating, but the Portal counts as having been used.

If the formation fails to activate we allow the BM to be removed off board and portal to still be available. Although we have played it that you have to take the BM and advance out of the portal. (This fell down with the Zones of Control over a portal question and having to engage.)

This has been the subject of some considerable debate in the past, with opinions both ways. There are also a number of related topics, not least the question of blocked 'gates. One of the main issues here is the potential to "stall" activations off-table - where the formations cannot be hurt - while not actually 'using' a gate.

IIRC (as Tim says), the majority felt that the formation in the webway must declare an action that will allow it to enter the battlefield; so it is not be allowed to declare a "marshall" or "Hold" action to remain off-table (and obviously sustain is meaningless). However, a formation that fails to activate may choose to rally (to remove the BM), thus remaining off-table.

And as noted, the debate on 'blocking' the gate (and ZoC etc) has an impact as well, and needs to be considered as part of the overall question.

At the moment in a friendly, these are definitely items for the 5 mins warm up - otherwise they ought to be in tournament notes as they do have a significant impact on the game.

I can't see how it would work by requiring them to move, or how you could derive this from the RAW. The rule book says all formations must activate, so if you were forced to move that'd mean a formation in the webway would have to enter on turn 1. It also seems quite clear by the way actions are listed in the rulebook that formations can choose to take hold actions, and in the same way that aircraft can choose to stand down (which is pretty much exactly analogous to this situation), so I see no reason to create a whole host of special conditions to fulfil with an alternative interpretation. The swordwind rule also says "may enter play via the Webway Portal by taking an action that allows them to make a move". Seems fairly clearly implied that you dont have to take such an action.

And besides, choosing to hold mid turn lets your opponent know it will not be arriving that turn, so it's hardly a big problem (certainly no worse than "resetting" overwatch).

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The rules effectively require you to activate all formations that have a valid action. However some off-table formations may not have an activation (eg when carried in a spaceship). In the case of the Eldar, if there are more formations in the webway than available 'gates, some may not be able to activate.

You are correct that there is nothing in the rules about this. However some feel that it is a bit 'gamey' to deliberately stall by declaring a "Hold" to drain opposing activations with no penalty; even the gate remains available as it has not been used.

Given the cheapness of Eldar formations, it would be relatively easy to have 14-16 formations of which 4-6 formations are off table, used to run down the opposing activations only using the last one or two activations per turn to enter the table, and keeping back the more powerfull formations for more opportune moments. However this is a difficult strategy to pull off for a number of reasons.

Actually, I agree with you that Eldar ought to be able to 'stall' like this, not least because IMO Eldar formations should not be forced to enter the battlefield at a disadvantageous point, like into a killing zone around a gate. However, that is not the opinion of the majority as far as I am aware.

To some extent this is like the 'eternal air assault', which is permitted RAW, but has been constrained by a slight modification defined by the community.

What's the constraint on the eternal air assault?

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*Edited because I misunderstood the question...

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The "Eternal air assault" is a situation brought up in the original rules, where RAW troops could fly in, make a successfull assault, consolidate back on to the air transport that brought them and fly off to repeat the exercise again the following turn. This was found to be very over-powered, so the community added a 'rule' that consolidation takes place during the end phase and thus prevents the air-transport from disengaging.

This question of "stalling" is similar in that RAW it is legal, but considered by the majority to be 'gamey' if not somewhat over-powered. (I suspect that Necrons may be better able to exploit this kind of 'stalling' though they also have different checks and balances.)

However, as I explained earlier, the potential issues that arise from either permitting or banning off-table 'stalling' are greatly minimised if both players have the same expectations and understanding - so this needs to be covered in the 5 mins warm-up (along with definitions for 'blocking' gates etc).

Removed as now irrelevant.

From the tournament pack, underline and italics mine:


Back on the original question: Thanks for the answers, gentlemen. I can see that it was perhaps not so quick a question as I imagined. I'll be sure to bring it up in the local group when I use gates.

Ah, I forgot that wasn't an actual rule, I thought maybe you meant the "spare aircraft" tactic (which I think is awesome and used a few times in the GT at the weekend...).
Hmm, not sure about that, in my mind the RAW actually tell you the answer in this case, as opposed to the air assault consolidate issue which is simply not covered.


Fair enough.

So what I still don't understand is how you actually play this. I can't see how your interpretation makes it possible to delay coming onto the board until turn 2, but surely you don't force them to come in on turn 1? So do you say that formations in the webway are exempt from the "all formations must activate" rule, or that you can give them hold actions but only after on-table formations have activated? Do you also ban aircraft from taking a "stand down" order in the same way?

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Done.

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They are effectively exempt from the "all formations must activate" rule.

Basically, the "reserves" system was not well-developed in the original rules. The Teleport and Aerospace rules are the only place it is discussed in the main rules and neither gives any appreciable detail. The greatest detail is in the GT scenario deployment rules, which focuses on that particular scenario, and it still only gives modest guidance on how different reserves are deployed and can enter play. So, we've had to ad hoc some general "core" rules for reserves beyond the scenario-specific deployment rules.

In the original core rules, ground units could either activate, in which case they must activate, or it was obvious they could not. It's intuitive that the "must activate" rule shouldn't apply in those cases where they cannot. I can't recall off the top of my head any example of someone asking if a Teleporter or Planetfaller could burn their activation to stall while off-board. Nor has anyone ever asked if any of the "escalating engagement" kinds of scenarios allow you to use off-board reserves to stall for activations. The only formations with an option to enter play were aircraft, and they have a completely separate activation and deployment scheme than ground units.

The FAQ clarifications/expansions on reserve rules stick with a few concepts:

• Formations off-board "don't count" for most purposes.
• Formations off-board should come on board if they activate.
• Conversely, formations remaining off-board should not activate unless they are coming on board (or at least attempting to do so).

The first is important because there is an overall concept in the game that the on-board/off-board distinction determines whether a unit can affect play. A Supreme Commander off-board cannot use their special ability unless it's with their own formation with the specific purpose of entering play. Off-board units don't count for things like Break Their Spirit determinations. Something like the Necron phase out rule is a special case that explicitly states off-board units count as destroyed.

The last two are driven by a couple factors. A formation which remains invulnerable until it can choose an advantageous time to come on-board is already very strategically flexible. Especially in the early game, the ability to stall, force the opponent to act and then react is quite potent as well. Allowing a single formation both abilities is something that most people feel is unfair. Again, it violates the idea that you're either on-board or not and gives most of the best of both worlds - off-board invulnerability with on-board strategic flexibility.

So, the ruling was you don't have to bring a webway reserve into play unless you want to (the player should have control over their forces, mostly, and it would defeat the concept and implied intent of reserves if you had to enter) but you could not use the formation for tactical advantage until you brought them on.

Ok Neal I have interpreted this issue like you do. Just one question what's your view on the reserve-formation-gate-usage if the formation fails their activation? Are they allowed to remain of board as part of their hold action and regroup? Or do they have to use the move option in your opinion? Would you allow a second formation to try and deploy via the gate (if the first don't have to) or is it "used"?

cheers

We had the exact same question coming up on Monday!

Our quick ruling was that you can't stall but use Marshal to stay off board after a failed activation, if I remember correctly.

Will be very interested in the "general" outcome of this thread

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