I still think the first step should be to give the Exarch First Strike on the extra attack. ATM there's that big chance of losing the extra attack completely, which sucks.

After that Sniper can work, but it needs to be rewritten for use in assaults. The current rule is designed for shooting only, and it shows.

+1 on the sniper rewrite, Ulrik. There are plenty of other lists where this has been tinkered with and the same complaint comes out - 'How do we handle this?' The Rules Committee should put this on their to-do list regardless of whether or not sniper is attached to Banshees. I'll send them a PM.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I tend to agree here SG, though I am not convinced that HBs will be used extensively even with an appropriately worded special rule. This is because a player needs them to work, and to repeat the trick more than once.

Other Aspects win and survive assaults through clipping at FF ranges, by having better armour and better mobility. HBs suffer (relative to the other Aspects) in that they are CC specialists, have 5+ armour and poor mobility. The result is that they suffer more from support fire, are more reliant on transport and are consequently that bit harder to use (more so if we succeed in making them 'Heavy Infantry killers').

As an alternative to the special rule (in whatever guise), would people prefer to try Infiltrate and 20cm move, both of which seem appropriate to the HB character?

Totally agree here. There are a number of ways this could be improved to the benefit of various units.
I would really like to see Sniper applied to some units in FF assaults, while for others like 'Nids etc it would be more appropriate for those units in CC assault.

See my suggestions for "Assassin" here.

You're right on that. For some reason I thought they had MW instead of First Strike. While the rule would fit them, they don't need both.

I'm still digesting the remainder of this conversation, so please continue.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I don't agree with the above. I think genestealers could use some more hitting power. Some extra power against high save units would be great, because it fits the background.

After some thinking I'm starting to like gingers proposed "assassin rule" or "CC sniper rule".



I wouldn't be comfortable with option 3 as that would help FF attacks as well. Say for instance you'd attack a formation of 3 terminator units and have a HB unit in contact with each. The rest of your formation could be like 5 Dire avengers or other great FF troops, it would be silly IMO if they'd also get the -1 modifier.

I'm more inclined to option 2. I'd probably rephrase it. It could be something along the lines
Option 2b
Any infantry units hit by a (CC) attack with the sniper/assasin rule suffers a -1 save modifier.

I think that's easier than option 2 above. You'd still have to pool the dice, but you have to do that anyway for FS, like some have stated earlier.
I realize a few CC hits might magically fly towards enemy inf not in base contact, but the rules of epic let CC attacks do that already anyway due to the abstract nature of the game.

cheers

They're on par with roughriders who a lot of people say are slightly too good for their points cost, combining scout, infiltrator and first strike with a cc of 2+. Tell me how that is not worth 25 pts per unit? What the tyranids don't need more of, are units which are even better in cc but which then are more expensive and will end up as skimmer fodder anyway.

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Never a truer word was said.

While CC MW vs infantry could just be done as a one-off special rule for HB there are a number of other units in 40k they are also all armed with power weapons and a new generic special rule would be best IMO as it could be used elsewhere.

Such units include: Ork Burna Boyz, Space Marine Honour Guard (the bodyguard of the Chapter Master), Chaos Warp Talons (may make an appearance in a Night Lords list) and Dark Eldar Incubi.

Conversely, the number of appropriate units in 40k could also speak against such a special rule - it may be best to just leave it abstracted into CC score as it has been so far.

If Banshees can be solved another way of course.

Not sure that this is completely true; Rough riders get EA(+1) First Strike, which neither the Gargoyles nor HBs get and which was the nub of the argument over whether the RR were overpowered. IIRC there were discussions over removing this extra attack.

Sniper has always been seen as a little rough at the edges and if revised, it "Assassin" or "Inf-MW" could then be a more appropriate way of representing some of the 40K attributes.

Who's talking about Gargoyles or HBs? What's an HB anyway?

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I think HBs would translate to howling banshees.

And yeah genestealers have good rules (that synergize well) for their pts. No argument there, but like I wrote I think a boost against high save targets would fit their background.

Cheers

Funny how the thread got so far off topic that people forgot what the original discussion was about. "What's an HB anyway?" That's so funny!

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

To bring it back on topic, would someone explain why giving Howling Banshees infiltrate is appropriate from a background perspective? I'm struggling to see how this is appropriate for Howling Banshees. Increasing their speed might be an option we could look at though.

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