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Unconventional ideas

 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Neal, it's your call: poll it or call it one way or the other.

I will do this if necessary, but I've had controversial rulings come back and bite me. I prefer persuasion and consensus-building to fiat rulings because those don't cause later problems.

As long as the debate stays civil, I'm okay with letting it go a bit longer.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
To amplify Mosc's point about the quality of the text, the Marine list has the following statement
Quote:
"Space Marines are organised into small formations called detachments. Each detachment is made up of three or more units, and may also include a number of extra units called upgrades."
This tells me that should I feel inclined to, I need only field three tacticals - not that I can imagine many players paying 300 points to do so :)

OK now I see what is happening here. If you will excuse me, this reading is exemplar of incorrect formal logic (i.e. they require an assumption in order to say what you think they do). What you have to recognise is that just because ALL marine formations must have AT LEAST three units does not mean NO marine formations must have MORE than three formations.

I apologise for the abstract nature, but consider this analogous statement: "All motor vehicles have 3 or more wheels."

You cannot conclude from this sentence that a Mondeo can have exactly three wheels. You don't know how many wheels a Mondeo has until you see another statement that tells you: you only know it has some number more than two. Basically, having three wheels (or units) is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being a motor vehicle (or a legal formation).

This becomes even clearer when you read the next sentence for context, because it actually spells this out in exactly this way:

Quote:
The detachments that may be taken in a Codex Astartes army are shown on the chart that follows. The chart also shows what units comprise the detachment, what upgrades are allowed, and its points cost. For example, an Assault detachment consists of four Space Marine Assault units for 175 points, and may include the Commander and Vindicator upgrades at an additional cost in points.


So all detachments have three or more units, and assault detachments have four units. If an assault formation had either three or four units, it would say so.

Of course, the statement that detachments have at least three units is demonstrably wrong anyway, since some detachments have fewer than three units ;)


Now, I will totally agree the rules are hardly the pinnacle of accurate formal logic, but what I am trying to illustrate is that the rules are in fact internally consistent, and that you have to read lots them against their logical definitions in order to conclude that leaving units out of a formation s legal. In fact, even if you read all the ambiguous rules so far presented in this way, there is still nothing to tell you what you do with the units you are leaving out - you could just as easily conclude that you can deploy them on the table as leave them off entirely, or give the formation blast markers, etc etc.

Basically, you have to try really hard to make the rules fit this, and once you do there are still rules missing to explain how it can work.

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:44 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
I think the RAW are clear once you actually analyse them objectively... so far I am pretty convinced that if the "call" that is made is to make units optional, it would be a change to the rules and not a clarification.

You realize that the SM ability to remove/change units during deployment is never stated explicitly in the rules, right? The wording of the SM Transport rule is written solely in terms of choosing the formation composition, which is done before setup. At no point does the transport rule state that SMs can use transport selection to make any sort of deployment decisions.

If no one else can do it, neither can the Marines.


I'm sorry, I'm not really following you. I don't think I said anything about allowing marines to remove units during deployment, did I? You quoted me but now I'm unsure if you meant to quote someone else? I'm saying the SM transport rule only applies to marines, only in building the army list, and only with respect to rhinos/drop pods. The Epic UK SM list extends this flexibility to deployment, but that is not how it works in the rulebook.

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:49 pm 
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Are any of you opposed to a poll? I've always been a rip-the-bandaid-off kinda guy and this thread has everyone picking at the edges of the bandage.

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:51 pm 
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I think it's Neal's call what to do, he's the ERC rules guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm not really following you. I don't think I said anything about allowing marines to remove units during deployment, did I? You quoted me but now I'm unsure if you meant to quote someone else? I'm saying the SM transport rule only applies to marines, only in building the army list, and only with respect to rhinos/drop pods.The Epic UK SM list extends this flexibility to deployment, but that is not how it works in the rulebook.

My mistake. I thought you were part of the consensus that SMs are allowed to trade units out for deployment purposes.

As far as I know, the EUK is part of that consensus. Their SM special rule was never intended to be a new/changed rule. It was a matter of codifying that interpretation of the existing rule in a way to avoid any confusion.

Likewise, the answer we've given on here for years is that the Pod/Rhino trade was, in fact, part of the army selection process, but that units could then be dropped as desired to fit a particular deployment choice.

As noted above, that's why the EUK ended up being free mix-n-match with Rhinos/Pods/air, while the NetEA answer was that you had to choose either Rhinos/air or Pods/air for deployment, but you couldn't choose Rhinos/Pods.

Honestly, you and Brumbaer are the only ones I can recall staking out a "not even SMs are allowed to drop units" position.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Are any of you opposed to a poll? I've always been a rip-the-bandaid-off kinda guy and this thread has everyone picking at the edges of the bandage.

I want to make sure I understand what everyone is saying first. As you can see above, I did not have a grasp of what Kyrt was saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I just think that his words on the subject could be taken to inform our current decision, and I don't think it would hurt to have all info available.


Given how often he changed his mind about things I doubt it


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Based purely on the rules, I'd actually fall in the same camp as Kyrt.

That said, I'm OK with Space Marines dropping their drop pods or Rhinos because deploying without them is a specifically allowed deployment option and it changes absolutely nothing about their cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:33 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Kyrt wrote:
<SNIP>
Honestly, you and Brumbaer are the only ones I can recall staking out a "not even SMs are allowed to drop units" position.

Ok, you are right, I remembered wrongly. The choosing of transport options is part of the army selection, but after that you can leave portions behind at deployment.
So you can't swap Rhinos for drop pods when deploying, but could leave anything behind. Even just setting up Rhinos and leaving the tactical marines at home :)

Choosing transport options is part of the army selection process. Portions of a formation may be left behind during deployment (to garrison, for example) and the decision to exchange options, even free ones, must be determined when the army list is determined.

What does the second sentence imply ?

Does it mean that you usually can not leave portions behind, so that it has to be mentioned here ? Or is it a reminder ?

No matter what -
I vote for - you should not be able to leave portions of formations behind at setup.
Get rid of that paragraph for SM and make all transport options including no transport an army list matter.

Reasoning
Adding such a feature will open a can of worms, which might haunt us later. Reducing the chance to be broken by removing everything that has a low save or isn't expandable. I.e. Orcs only deploying Gretchins, because such a mob can't be broken.
This ruling would have to be taken into consideration with all new army lists to prevent abuse.
It might already be possible to abuse this with existing army lists.

And for what ?
Edit-
Will it make the game better ? NO
Will it make the rules simpler or clearer? NO

It will just allow somebody to use a troop type in a battle field role that it wasn't designed for and that can be fulfilled in different ways already
and surprise an opponent once or twice because he didn't know that putting those troops into a flyer would be possible.



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SH


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:49 pm 
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brumbaer wrote:
Does it mean that you usually can not leave portions behind, so that it has to be mentioned here ? Or is it a reminder ?


Given how GW rules are usually written it can be both. My feeling is that it is a reminder, not a special rule for marines, but I got no problem with an interpretation going the other way.

Note that the grot rule require at least one ork unit in the formation.

More generally I'm of the opinion that by dropping units from a formation you're paying a premium for it (the points for the lost units) and so I think it's fine to allow it. Example: Taking an Ork Warband and dropping the boyz, you're leaving units for a minimum of 80 points out of the game (and that's counting grots as 25 points and the boyz unit they come with as a freebie).


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:41 pm 
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Ah! Thank you, Brumbaer! I thought it was in there and searched the FAQ but I missed it. Twice. From the official 2008 FAQ:

Quote:
6.3.1 Space Marine Transports

Q: How and when are Space Marine transport options selected?
A: Choosing transport options is part of the army selection process. Portions of a formation may be left behind during deployment (to garrison, for example) the decision to exchange options, even “free” ones, must be made when the army list is determined.


As far as I'm concerned, that's in the official FAQ that was vetted by Jervis and that's going to stay the answer. You can drop units during deployment in order to change options.


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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Huh well that's that then, question answered?

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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Unconventional ideas
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Umm, at the risk of opening cans of worms (too late I have started) . . .

1. This response is in the Marine list; does it apply to all other races?
2. What penalties are incurred (BMs for example)


And finally, who is going to pop Rug's swollen head for being right yet again :)


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