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Imperial Guard Tips

thedlx

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:09 pm

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Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:06 pm
Posts: 24

Hi,

we had a number (>10) games with IG, Space Marines, Orks and (since last week) Eldar.
In all games except one involving the IG the IG army lost!!
After a game we usually swap armies and sides and play again with slightly different terrain, so different players lost with our IG army.

This is very surprising to me, as I had the feeling the IG army had some extremely powerful units: the leman russ, the artillery and rough riders.

The IG army varied from game to game but typically used:

1-2 tank companies (10 leman russ)
1 artillery company
1x3 or 2x3 hydras
2-3 rough rider units
1 mech inf company, sometimes improved with Ogryns & Hellhounds
some storm troopers (mostly in valkyrie proxies)

Usually the IG player used the IG army quite defensively, shoot as much as possible and firefight approaching enemies with the storm troopers, mechi infantry and the rough rider (40cm charge).
Most of the time the IG player not only lost by objectives (which would be explained by the rather defensive style) but his army was clearly broken and destroyed by the 4th turn (mostly by enemy assaults).

In our first games the artillery was quickly destroyed by enemy assaults (e.g. Space Marine drop pods) but since intermix the artillery with storm troopers (FF value) and screen it with rough riders it usually survives (but the Artillery, Hydras and the screen bind significantly more than 1000 points!)

I don't think the game is unbalanced, we are probably both playing the IG too defensively but I would like to hear your comments. Do you have similar experiences? Any good moves or other tips for the IG army? Do you play it offensively or also defensively?

thanks

Oliver

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:04 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

I usually play either 3 mechinzed companies each with the fire support upgrade. Or 1 Mech and 2 foot slogger if points are low. ?At a 3000 point game I add a tank company, two Hydras batteries, 1 rough rider, and 1 Thunderbolt formation.

In either case I set up a wall of firepower that when I get Assaulted gives me almost as many units in support as the target has assualting. at the same time the large units are very tough to break.

This force does not move well but you can't park in front of it.

I have not been the victim of Air assualt units yet, my opponent is working on his ork landa. But I have seen few formations that can take the punishment of two of my main formations firing into them. ?A Mech company plus fire support at 30cm has 33 AP5+ shots. ? ?

Don't be afriad to advance with the Mech forces. ?With a double move they have a 60cm movement. ?Combined with a 30cm shooting range they have a long reach. ?

Remember that objectives have no memory. ?I have found it very diifcult to throw enough units at the IG to break them without leaving behind objectives. ?

The IG have to play a waitng game. ?They have to deny victory while keeping their fighting strength intact.

I hope that helps good luck.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:05 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36984
Location: Ohio - USA

The IG are the best combined arms force in the game. The have lots of FA/CAS, AFVs, and Infantry (plus Cav even!). They should be the easiest Army to use. They can take a some tactical bungling and bounce back because of their numbers and heavy tanks. As a combined arms force, they should be used on the offensive (L4 SoTR), based on mission of course. Your comments appear sound to me C/C. I like your use of Mech Forces( :;):

) with combined supporting assets ! Did your homework, I see !

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Cuban Commissar

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:29 am

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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 2933
Location: Colorado, USA

I don't believe in "Light" Infantry.

Airborne, Air Assualt, Air Cav, Storm Troopers, Scouts, Infiltrators, etc.

They all mean the same thing...road blocks until the real army arrives. The heavy forces; Mechnized and Armor spearheads.

Where's that book on Market Garden. :laugh:

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Legion 4

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:39 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36984
Location: Ohio - USA

Good point! ?

But starting out in the 101, I am lucky in being experienced in both and use both in the game. I can't wait to do an Air Assault with the new E:A Stormtroops and Valkyries supported by Vultures!

Light Forces are trickier to use, especially in open terrain. But can be used with Mech Forces, I've done it! :;):

?

Oh, the book - "A Bridge Too Far" by C. Ryan... good flick too!

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Markconz

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:41 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

In the 'air power' thread, the issue was raised 'should epic units be made comparable with there 40k counterparts'. I would like to expand this issue further to:
'Should there be comparability between 40k epic, BFG, necromunda, inquisitor'.

Let me begin by putting my name forward as one of those people who are all for comparable abilities.

I think 40k and epic and necromunda and BFG and inquisitor should all be comparable - same universe, different ways of exploring it. I want to recognise something when I shift to a different system. I still have dreams of fighting that epic and BFG campaign one day!

There is a lot of poo-pooing of 40k by people who gave it up in disgust a long time ago (as did I). However, the current 40k is a lot better than its previous incarnations, and changes in recent years, have been more concerned with play balancing issues than huge changes to the fluff. It simply is not true to say there is no consistancy to the 40k fluff and lists - like anything that complicated there is 'variance' but that does not mean we should abandon fundamental constructs.

Rather than aiming for increasing dis-coherency(?) between systems, encouraging coherency between systems (as hard as that may be), is the way to go. As the fluff and background is set mainly by the 40k design team this sets the precedent. The 40k design teams concepts dominate the marketplace and its hard to argue with success.

In addition Jervis has repeatedly stated that epic A is constrained by the 40k design teams specifications... (which is not really that constrained at all to be honest - eg the latests 40k Tyranid codex mentions all the old epic constructs bar the dactylis ('A dead plucked chicken lying on its back throwing eggs' -JJ)).
One of the problems Jervis stated that epic40k (the previous edition of epic) suffered from, was differences in relative efficacy between epic and 40k units (eg tanks were not tough enough compared to infantry).

Right off the bat the official Epic Armageddon lists and rules have been, and should continue to be, constrained, informed, and enhanced by adherence to the wider picture (in particular 40k and Battle Fleet Gothic). There is after all, plenty of room to take epic gaming it in any direction people want - outside the official rule and list set. (I myself intend to do just such a thing as soon as Maksim can supply me with some more AT-AT's... :;):

)

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Legion 4

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:19 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

I say go for it, "Do what works for you" ... and I've got AT-ATs in my inventory too !

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pixelgeek

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:21 pm

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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 2642
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Quote (Markconz @ 17 2005 July,13:41)

'Should there be comparability between 40k epic, BFG, necromunda, inquisitor'.

Define "compatibility"?

Take the Icon Bearer from the CSM list as an example. People think that it should have a specific functionality in Epic game terms to match the 40K background but in that units case the functionality was actually placed on the unit in 40K as a way to justify the unit. The unit gets some fluff to justify it. So the fluff isn't as important as the actual unit

But the obverse is true. With some few exceptions Chaos has not artillery. its part of the fluff and we're stuck with it. Even if it makes a wierd large scale army. So even if it makes sense in Epic to give a large Chaos army artillery it won't have it unless its an Iron Warriors army or one of a few units like the Plague tower or Contagion which aren't really artillery.

I think that the fluff is a series of guidelines and that there are times when it should be tweaked or even ignored if it makes a better game. Or ignored if it is making design decisions that aren't necessary or that don't make any difference.

The games all have different criteria and requirements that inform the way units get "reasilsed" in that game. An Epic THawk is not the same sort of unit as a BFG THawk. 40K aircraft typically need to be tweaked to make good Epic aircraft.

If you're too rigid in your application of the fluff then you can run into trouble. But by the same token you need to keep that material in mind to make the game consistent with the backlground

Its a bit of a balancing act

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dafrca

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:05 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA

I believe PG has it right on. Let?s not confuse overall military philosophy with specific details. I know I was talking about those who want the details the same.

The Fluff says Eldar are High Tech and fast. Fine, make them High tech and fast. It says Orks are lower on the tech scale, again fine.

Where I think the effort becomes a problem is just as in PGs example. Just because there is a unit that has X ability in 40k (adds to your attack for example), does not mean that is the exact effect it should have in Epic.

Further, because 40k is dealing with a ?battle? at a much finer detail, then things that should have an effect in 40k may not in Epic.

If I was doing a fine detail Modern game, with SEALS and US Marines on the US side and then I made a MicroScale game, should I keep US forces as troops only? To me it is often the same kinds of arguments I hear.

Now, just to bring it full circle, if the GW universe has Eldar as High Tech and Fast in their overall military philosophy, then of course it should apply to BFG, Epic, 40k, and Inquisitor.

dafrca

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dafrca

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:14 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA

Quote (pixelgeek @ 17 2005 July,14:21)

I think that the fluff is a series of guidelines and that there are times when it should be tweaked or even ignored if it makes a better game. Or ignored if it is making design decisions that aren't necessary or that don't make any difference.

The games all have different criteria and requirements that inform the way units get "reasilsed" in that game. An Epic THawk is not the same sort of unit as a BFG THawk. 40K aircraft typically need to be tweaked to make good Epic aircraft.

If you're too rigid in your application of the fluff then you can run into trouble. But by the same token you need to keep that material in mind to make the game consistent with the backlground

Its a bit of a balancing act

This was what I wanted to say. You just put it better.

Bottom line is, have simular systems, like the THawk, but do not try and force the same role in all games, again, like the THawk.

dafrca

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dafrca

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:15 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
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Location: Burbank, CA, USA

By the way, Thanks Markconz for this thread, I should have done it myself.

Better to discuss this without hurting the other thread.

dafrca

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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:05 am

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Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
Posts: 7258
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Hi Guys,

Personally, I think that the difference between 54mm Inquisitor, 28mm 40k and 6mm Epic are big enough that units can take on different qualities.

What is a single squad in Inquisitor functions differently than that squad as part of a company task group in 40k which functions differently than a battalion-sized task force in Epic.

Making the company level size of 28mm 40k dictate how single elite squads and entire battallions behave seems pretty foolish to me.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:50 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11147
Location: Canton, CT, USA

Just to add my 2 cents...

I get tired of hearing that something has to be done (or not done) in epic because that's how it is in 40k. I have no problem with units being generally comparable to 40k and most things do need to agree fluff-wise, but they are different games. Not everything that appears in 40k needs to be in epic and I think it is okay for epic to have some things that don't appear in 40k.

I understand why some players want complete consistency between systems, but I think that places unneccessary constraints.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:30 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Adhere to as much universe background and even mechanical consistency as possible, but be willing to dump it for solid playability reasons.

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Legion 4

Post subject: Imperial Guard Tips

Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:45 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36984
Location: Ohio - USA

All good points, but since I don't/won't play 40K, I'm Epic-centric ! :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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