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tau rules
thedlx
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:50 pm 
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Hi,

I found references to a kult of speed army list. It seems it was playtested. But I cannot find it in the epic vault or in the EpicA yahoo group file section.

Any pointers, am I blind?

Oli

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:58 pm 
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Hi and welcome to the boards.
The KOS list was only up for a brief moment. It is actually a draft for at list to be published in White Dwarf in March. Jervis wanted our comments on it. I have it on my computer and i can post it here but beware that some changes has since been applied. You can use this list as a starting point but I recomend that you either buy WD or wait another couple of months before the list goes up in the vault as a PDF for all to download.

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:04 pm 
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Cybershadow: If this is in any way copyright infrengement (SP?) or you don't want this kind of reproduction of GW material please delete this post.

CyberShadow: My appologies, but I have removed this list. I finally got hold of my White Dwarf mag and reading it last night I found that the Kult of Speed list will appear in the next WD. I therefore think that, since this will appear in a publication, GW would certainly prefer that it did not appear here. See my post below.




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thedlx
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:50 pm 
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Great

thanks for the post Warmaster

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:34 pm 
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This is a difficult call. On the one hand, Jervis requested that people did not post lists of previous version of the game (he even went as far as to ask that people dont print them out). On the other hand, this list does not appear to even exist in the game any more. I would guess that it will return at a later date. Until it does, I will let it stand here but I would be interested in hearing what others think.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:58 pm 
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What do you mean print list from previous games? He would have a problem with me posting a custom unit for Epic Space Marine or Army list for Epic 40K?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:52 pm 
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Gandalf:  The standard GW agreement when downloading their stuff is that it is for fair use, but they retain ownership and do not want electronic copies distributed.  Fan stuff is fine, just don't duplicate from-GW stuff without permission.

CS and sundry:  The official list will be posted in the vault the month after the WD publishes it.  I think in that regard it does still exist in the game, and availability is only temporarily restricted.  I will let you be the judge as to whether you feel posting it on EpiComms would count as an electronic copy distribution.

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:38 am 
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I don't see it being a problem. I post a ton of GW stuff on my site have have never been told to take any of it down. Most of it is out of print anyway.

I used to be into Japanese animation big time, and I have never, never heard of a japanese company telling a fansite to take something down. I haven't seen of GW doing it either, although some people freak out by the idea that GW can seize a site and shut it down, which is absolute BS. If there is a documented case where they said specifically "we feel this is in violation, and we will take you to court to remove it" then I would love to see it. Just getting a generic letter asking to comply with their standards is not the same thing.

If they don't see it as a great compliment to what they do then that is their problem. I mean, maybe I can understand offering softcopies of the WFB 6th ed rulebook on a site. . . but somethings you just have to let go.

If posting that a Storm Bolter upgrade is 25 points is a copyright infringement, so is posting Storm Bolter, or Epic, so then why even bother? I know they want to protect their investments, but it all seems pointless with all the file sharing going on. The truth is, publicly anouncing what is in a book is no different than I reading it allowed to all of you in my room. Would a company expect you all to cover your ears and buy your own books? Come on. . .

I say leave the list up. What difference does it make in the end anyway? Most of the time people just skim through this stuff in their spare time, not use it to incorporate into their own games they plan on publishing.

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primarch
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:02 am 
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Hi!

Well, as an issue that gets constantly brought up in regards to net epic, these are the main "taboos" that a fansite should not infringe on:

1. GW photos. Big no-no. If its from a WD, rulebook or any source they have published, no matter how old, dont use it. Infringement on this is the fastest way to draw thier attention.

2. NO scans or "copy and paste". Dont scan rulebooks, WD's etc OR copy paste them to any file format and offer them for download. OF course with file sharing this has become a moot point, but dont do it on your website.

These are the main two ones, most other stem from these.

If you take pictures of your own minis, make your own home grown rules or even similar ones, but in your own words, you are pretty much in the clear.

We have followed these to the letter and in 7 years have never been bothered by GW despite much "close scrutiny".

Primarch

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:16 am 
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ok, close scrutiny. . . how do u know that? did they approach you?

my point is that i wonder how much they really care, given the resources need to crack down on every site, and even deal with different laws in every country. i mean, getting an email from GW UK when u live in another country doesn't mean much. . .

i know what the laws say, but usually these laws are for enforcing and instance when I design a game using names or concepts GW has. I have seen hundreds of 40k fansites with stats and they aren't taken down. . .

look at my site primarch, i have tons of gw pics, but i use them as a way of saying "check this game out, it is awesome" not, here's a variation of an existing game i am trying to make money off of. i dont even pretend they are my images, and i am sure everyone who visits my site knows that.

I dont mean to sound so rebellious, but the whole point of fansites is sharing your favorite things about what your a fan of. the only thing it can do is create more interest for them and they aren't even paying for the advertising.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:16 am 
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OK. Reading my new WD last night, I found that the Kult of Speed list will appear in the next WD. Now, GW have stict policies on published material, and even if I were to get something accepted to Fanatic mag, I would need to take it off my own site for inclusion! Therefore, I have removed the list. My appologies to all involved.

Gandalf - Jervis simply did not want people to distribute old versions of the lists and game. This was, as far as I understand, he did not want the game judged on a version which had been improved. I can understand this as I am tired of people not wanting to even look at EA because of E40K! As neal said, I dont think that your own lists are a problem. Out of print stuff is a different beast. Stuff that will will appear in a bought pulication is a little more of a hot topic.

In general, I agree with you. Most fan sites are a way of generating interest for the hobby and are actually doing a lot to support it and generate money. The general rule is, can someone avoid giving GW money by getting stuff from the site? GW can be very heavy handed on occasion, but with this specific case (and each case should be judged individually) I can see their point.

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:49 am 
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My appologies to all involved.

No apologies needed. I had my serious doubts werther or not to post the list. Reading people's comments has also convinced me that removing it is the correct thing to do. -Actually it is me who should apologize :blush:

Cheers! :)

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:25 pm 
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Actually, legally Cyber, if your quote a GW publication and credit them, there is nothing wrong with it.

Writers do it all the time and that is why we learn how to do it properly in school (although I will admit I forgot!  :p )

If I took a Tom Clancy novel, and tried to reprint it and sell it as my own then that is in direct violation of copyright infringement. If I quote (Jack Ryan looked at the file and instantly recognized the Russian weapons dealer." (-,-), THAT IS NOT COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

Saying that in 40k, "A Vindicator may be upgraded with X for X points" (-page goes here-,-author gore here-) is not. Things are a little more informal on message boards, but done properly there nothing GW can do about mentioning certain parts of an article, so long as you are clear as to where you are getting them from, and yes, that includes point values. I love forum rules that specify no point values. . . people get so freaked out worrying about this.

I read GWs policies and thay even mentioned that they recommend not using bad language in your forum, which is an absolute joke. Freedom of speech. I can say just as much as I want in the privacy of my own home in talking about GW as I can in a forum. I know you have your own rules Cyber, but please don't be afraid that GW can actually visit your site and rule over it's contents. There are things they can do, and things they can't. It would be cheaper for them to scare everyone in believing that you can't to certain things, but truthfully they just want absolute control, which they legally can't have.

And I can understand not wanting to distribute the older copies of the game. EpicA versions that is.

Just as a side not, if you quoted white dwarf properly Cyber, then it is legal to post part of the article.

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Jimbo
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:12 pm 
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Quote (Gandalf the Grey @ 24 2004 Jan.,17:25)
Actually, legally Cyber, if your quote a GW publication and credit them, there is nothing wrong with it.

Not exactly true...

What you are saying is relating to fair use, and generally most websites and forums are not really in the realms of fair use (ie review and educational use).

What writers are doing is using the "quote" as part of a scholarly work, quoting an entire KOS army list from GW is not fair use and would not be seen as such in any court in the US or the UK.

Giving credit doesn't actually make it right and legal.

If I copy a CD, convert into mp3 and put it on a website (or available through peer-to-peer_ and credit the original artist, it still doesn't make it okay!

The issue with copyright and trademarks is simple, if you don't crack down everytime, then  if someone then starts to use your IP to sell something you have less chance in court to say that your IPR is being infringed, therefore GW will at every opportunity protect their copyright

Fair use also does not apply to registered trademarks, therefore though you can quote the from the rulebook you can't utilise the trademark on a website.

Just because you can do something doesn't make it okay and legal.

The netepic site was "asked" by GW to remove copies of older rule sets because it was infringing GW's IP. Just because you haven't been asked is more likely that GW are unware of your site rather than they don't mind.

I can assure you that they would take appropriate legal action if required as what you are doing is diminishing the value of their IP.

If you are unsure, write to GW and ask them if your site is okay!

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http://uk.games-workshop.com/Legal/ippolicy.htm

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Gandalf the Grey
 Post subject: tau rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:38 pm 
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You see, that is just it, I kind of have a problem with asking GW for legal advice. The truth is, if I was contacted by GW (and it would have to come from GW USA not GW UK) and they said to take all of my images down, I would, and then probably replace the spaces with "I think GW sucks." That isn't slander either, that is my opinion. So sure they would be retaining their IP, but they would have lost me as a customer and my site as a way of expanding the hobby. Most of my site's visitors come looking mostly for Japanimation, but I was always thinking I was doing GW a favor by posting stuff about their game.

Well, I guess we will wait and see. To be honest I could really care less if I had to take the stuff down or not. It doesn't do anything for my ego to keep it up.

And Jimbo, I see quotes published all the time from all sorts of sources. You might be right on the whole mp3 thing (and I am not convinced file sharing is wrong), but to mention something in written form cannot be that much different than word of mouth. Can you imagine if we were in the same room and you asked me how many points for a Land Raider detachment, and I responded with, "Sorry, you'll have to buy your own rulebook."

Maybe I'll move my site to the Ukraine or Russia (hell, they are pretty cheap too) where UK and US laws wouldn't be able to touch it. It is where the server sits I believe that decides juristiction.

This whole thing is stupid though. It only hurts GW, and if their arrogance is so great, I wish I hadn't spent so much money on their products. I would be this way with any other company.

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