15cm speed is Infantry's speed. That's pretty much a crawl. I would rather see Ordinati Minoris as DC2 with 1 Void Shield.

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It's the speed of purpose built heavy tanks like Machariuses & Stormlords.

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E&C- I don't have any experience in list development so will have to bow down to your greater knowledge and expereince in such matters. But it does seem that those problems above are not insurmountable and could be fixed. But at the end of the day it is your call.

I just hope you don't decide in haste and repent at leisure about what to do going forward with the Supplement.

Kind regards

James

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Rather than 10cm speed is there anything else we can do to capture their lumbering crawl? A mechanism such as cannot March or -1 activation to Double?

Just brain-storming.

Cheers

James

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The poor decision happened four months ago, I just didn't realise it properly until the last few weeks.

Should a suitable list emerge, the supplement could be re-vivified, but right now the Skitarii list seems to be going in the wrong direction, steps towards meshing the two styles into one mutant list notwithstanding. Ergo the supplement is on life support at the very best.


Stuff like "can't march" & "can't shoot on a Double" etc. sounds good to me, in lieu of 10cm (which of course doesn't need a special rule), as the end result would be similar.

That still leaves the internal imbalance issues & need for defence lines of course.

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Ordinati Minoris are purpose build to carry a Titan-grade weapon. How is that different to eg a Macharius?

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Yes but we can't change the past (unless one of us have invented a time machine on the quiet)- we can affect what happens next.

Sure-realise that would be adding an extra special rule to capture lumbering aspect but it is a pretty simple one so should nt cause any confusion for new player/opponent.

The defence lines is one of the 3 things I suggested above in earlier post that could be a simple change between main Skitarii (Legions) list and supplement Skitarii (PDF) list.

That just leaves us with any discussion on any "internal imbalance issues". We don't yet have a solution to this but it will be a heck of a lot easier to sort out this problem in isolation rather than trying to find a middle ground on a dozen issues.

So let's park the rest until later and just focus on these.

Cheers

James

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Does that sound like something that moves as quick as a tank?



I've proposed a solution that would work perfectly, regardless of what stats Vaaish wants for the actual vehicles. He shot it down instantly.

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Where is that quote from?

How much should we let background fluff affect stats/rules? I think we should reflect them but not necessarily be bound 100% by them at the cost of gameplay, especially if difficult to quanitify.

You could argue that the above description is moving at slow infantry speed. After all in Epic terms infantry moving through Marsh and Jungle are not slowed down (albeit having to take dangerous terrain tests for the former).

Just playing Devil's Advocate.

Cheers

James

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Then maybe we can all revisit this suggestion in a more measured way. After all if it is only a sole bone of contention, rather than one of many, then it should be easier to find compromise.

Thanks

James

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It's from the book that Ordinatus Minori appeared in.


That makes me the good guy, woo.

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Dark Apostle?
Another quote. Page 127:
"Hulking, slow moving, tracked crawler vehicles emerges from transports..."

P.129:
"Among the ranks of Martian foot soldiers were Ordinatus Minoris crawlers, and each was the length of three Leman Russ battle tanks. They had two, wide track units, one at the front and one at the rear, and between these was supported the mass of the war machine. Heavy girders and steel struts supported huge weapons, and each crawler had dozens of red-robed adepts and servitot crew. Steel ladders rose to the cobtrol cabins that were offset from the main guns. Laron did not recognise the weapons these behemots of steel and bronze bore, but the massive, steaming couplings and humming generators upon their backs spoke of immense contained power."

Then follows a description of an Ordinatus Majoris which is also described as a "crawler".

I'm not sure if the crawlers on p.127 are Ordinati Minoris as the Minoris are described in full two pages later.

And then super-heavy tanks as the Baneblade aren't fast either. Actually in Wh40k Apocalypse super-heavy vehicles have a special rule that makes them slower than ordinary vehicles (max speed = 6" compared to 12") but have it easier to traverse Difficult Terrain.
Imperial Armopuer 1 lists the Baneblade as 25km/h on road. That's running speed of an ordinary human.

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I'm assuming you are referring to fixed pricing of Minorus and Majoris. If you read what I wrote up there, you'll note I didn't shoot it down instantly. 1. we are applying that structure to the Majoris. 2. I asked what was gained by going this route with the number of fixed options you were wanting added over what we currently have. I've also noted that I think the minorus should be modular since it is far more common while the majoris works well with fixed load outs since these particular weapons tend to get named for the conflict they were purpose built for (mars, Armageddon, etc.)

If you are additionally referring to titans, I've explained this multiple times why they need to stay as is.

Lastly, on the crawlers bit. I interpret the walking speed of a cautious man as being pretty close to crawling especially when going through mud and mire that could potentially bog down a tracked vehicle of that mass. The minorus especially is purpose built to be assigned to infantry by the fluff we have. It makes little sense to do this if it moves slower than the infantry it's assigned to. This is documented with several WWI tanks. With the fluff we have, it makes far more sense that the vehicles move at the speed of infantry. In game terms this discourages their use for anything other than stationary units. Whether they move at 10cm or 15cm it does little to change the theme. They still move slow which is the main aspect to capture.

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You have half a dozen times so far; Sorry if you changed your mind.


Only by reducing down to the 3 that are already individually priced, apparently.
You've said nothing about re-introducing other types with an individual price that I've seen.


Internal balance becomes possible without having to play with stats.

Ie: three quarters of the Ordinati types won't be useless.


Completely disagreed. It's the difference between a heavy tank and a gun crawler and it's critical to their playstyle and indeed the entire style of the list IMO.

You are, IMO, stretching it when a crawler vehicle that is described as slow moving, moving at a speed of inches, etc. at all opportunities, suddenly matches speed with assault tanks like Stormswords & Stormlords.

Most of the Ordinati haven't worked properly before @10cm, but the best solution would be to price them appropriately - which can't be done when they're tied to the price of the rather wonderful Quake Cannon/CLP Ordinatii that you're so fond of. The arty Ordinati have distorted the pricing structure, and that won't even really be fixed by increasing the speed TBH.



I wasn't refering to the Titans, but yes, you've explained multiple times that you want the list to have more options (and less composition restrictions) than any other army list in Epic.

That kind of over-stuffed list was tried for years. It does not work.

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Emphasis mine.

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Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.