I knew you'd be along soon Ginger

There is absoltely no rule whatsoever that prevents an aerial assaulting formation from entering multiple ZoC.
Anyone trying to claim there is should hang their head in shame!




This discussion has been had before. As long as the Thunderhawk lands in the target formations ZoC it doesn't matter at all if it's in another enemy formations ZoC. All that matters is that once down, the aerial engagers have to move into base contact with whoever is nearest.

As can be seen, there are other players that play this way (see Dave's reply for example).

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

I'm with Ginger on this

The quote saying you can ignore the scout ZoC is specifically about Scouts screening with their ZoC from behind the target formation.

Ageing hippy - this is certainly what we will be playing at FSA

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I'm with Ginger and Steve too. The FAQ example is clearly meant to deal with scout units behind the assault target. Trying to take it any further than that as a means to set a precedent is linguistic gymnastics on a 40K scale IMO.

The air assault enters the target ZOC first, and had no real direction, so effectively the scouts could be "behind" for the War Engine.

The OP also mentions intermingling two formations and I would add that in that case the Thunderhawk can just claim them as intermingled and therefore treat them as a single formation.

anyone trying to suggest that they're entering the normal units ZoC before they enter the ZoC of the scouts in front of them should hang their heads in shame

at the very best, they enter both zones simultaneously, and if they're not assaulting both, they cannot do that. the ruling about entering a units ZOC in an assault is regarding to when you've already entered another units ZoC, it doesnt apply all the time.

meanwhile, i know its a broken record, but aircraft are not actually allowed to barge. the rules do not allow it in any shape or form. only the FAQ does, and in doing so, actually contradicts itself in the process. this means that the FAQ is wrong, and should be changed

the way the rules are actually written, an air assault should be resolved in the following way:

aircraft move into position, takes flak fire from anything it moves through and any CAP business is resolved here

then it lands. being as to how it is a 0cm move unit when landed, it cannot move over enemy units while a ground unit, and while an air-unit, it ignores all troops, and thus, cannot barge. (pointing out here to the part where a planetfalling unit that appears in the same spot as an enemy unit is moved, not the enemy. no provision is made for barging to occur during planetfall, which is the only point of the rules where a unit appearing in the same space as another unit is covered. no exceptions to this exist elsewhere, so these rules should be used)

then it has completed a move. overwatch now triggers (a ground unit has finished its move in range and LOS of a unit on overwatch, it may not have started that way, but it has finished, which is what the rules say)

then it disembarks troops. overwatch triggers again

then the troops make their assault moves

then combat takes place.

so the way to solve the air assault problem should be a combination of AA, CAP, and (preferably TK) weapons on overwatch. blow up the thunderhawk before it unloads, dead marines.



as to the steps needed to actually prevent an air assault? i have found that 3 formations of hydras and 3 formations of thunderbots is usually sufficient to discourage all but the most desperate or determined from launching air assaults...

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

WE can barge, and aircraft that land (so far) are all WE.

So often I wish there was a "recommend" button on here.

I'm not sure this is right. I may be getting this confused with how planetfall works though (I quite often planet fall landing craft). But doesn't overwatch happen at the end of a phase of movement and the troops disembarking and the TH landing are all part of the same phase of movement. I guess you could choose what to shoot at - the marines or the TH with each OW unit you have so the end result is the same.

Yeps, 0 cm move so how can it barge?

_________________

+1



I did not realise this was such a contentuous issue.

I think the question of whether A/C can barge isn't clear in the letter of the rules either way. e.g. barging only requires a "charge" and not specifically a ground move greater than 0cm. It is debatable either way whether aircraft are charging when they initiate an assault I think. However, despite the ambiguity in the rules I think it's clear that it should be possible by the spirit of them. If you won't get out of the way of a flying war engine coming down on top of you, why would it be any different to, say, an Eldar Scorpion skimming above you?

However, I don't see how landing aircraft can be targeted by overwatch fire. JTG, I find it odd that on the one hand you say aircraft can't barge because they aren't moving, but they somehow can be hit by overwatch. Disembarking troops on the other hand is specifically noted as triggering overwatch.

One thing I do find interesting though is: THs only have 2 DC, so they can only barge 4 units. Assuming they contact 4 units, can their cargo dismount? The transport rule only addresses units being in base contact in the context of a counter-charge, but again I think the spirit of the rules suggests they should not be able to dismount.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

If a landing craft decided to drop out of the sky ontop of me I think I'd move a bit to get out of the way!

To me the barging is just ground units moving away for the landing WE before they get squished. Lets remember the rules do cover multiple situations. Swooping Hawks can teleport, when they are using their wings to drop down from a great height for example.

I was wondering this myself.

If you barge twice your DC you can't disembark troops...barge careful now