Looking for some tips and general formation favorites.

Today for the first time I tried 2 fire dragons, both mounted in a mix of 3 wave serpents and 2 falcon tanks. I liked them a lot as close up assault and or shooty units, and they got lots of attention from the enemy because they were feared...but at 580pts I feel they're a bit pricey. eh?

Also usually bring 1 swooping hawk formation and 1 shining spear formation, but am thinking that 2 of one or the other would preform better than 1 of each.

Haven't messed around wit the other aspects yet, any ideas?

My clear conclusion is this: There are a lot of aspects that really don't work.

Scorpions need to get into CC, meaning their thread ranges are half that of Dire Avengers. The return - one pip better saving throw - is not big enough for this difference.
Banshees. The same treat range problems as scorpions, and they hit like girls.
Warp Spiders. Apparently they smell; the other aspects don't want them in their transports with them, confining them to warp gate service. They have a decent threat range from there, but they hit like girls.
Dark Reapers. Sacrifice too much for ranged ap attack. If they had even a half-baked AT attack, they might be worth it; as is, they're not.

Swooping hawks can be a threat against artillery, but if even a tiny troop of infantry screen the artillery, they will fail spectacularly.

Fire Dragons. Dire Avengers. These work fairly well when in wave serpents. But don't expect them to win on their own; they need to be backed up or they will fail, even against cheaper formations. In wave serpents, they're fragile as hell - it only takes a single AT shot to make them lose all that mobility. And outside an assault they're a waste.

Shining Spears are fairly nice; they're cheaper and less fragile than the others. I like to run them with groups of jetbikes, and I like to put my SC there for the better saving throw. Lance is not always useful, but they work well against anything with reinforced armor.

For all: Buy Exarches; but keep them out of CC; they're there to be Inspiring; if they die in the assault you lose that bonus; a chance for an extra hit is not worth risking that for.
Park the wave serpents in front of the infantry; their reinforced armor soak up more damage than the aspects.
Get a Supreme Commander somewhere safe; that initiative test reroll is worth its weight in gold.

Falcons are worse transports than serpents; they're even more fragile, and they carry only one. The increased firepower does not make up for this.

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TL;DR: Mix Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents or gates. Shining Spears with jetbikes.
Spice it up with the others if you want your opponent to win.

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My clear conclusion is that I have contrary experiences to you.



The fact that they cause more hits and have more attacks in base contact than Dire Avengers makes them very useful in my experience. I've combined them well with both Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers.



Yet, most Eldar players on here argue that they are one of the best Aspects. I'm confused as to why you think they're so bad, given that they're mobile, can infiltrate, and receive the benefit of first strike.

Also, this rather silly comment of 'they hit like girls' is unnecessarily macho and patronising, and doesn't do anything to convince me that you have a strong argument.



I disagree. A full formation of these is great for tearing up infantry, and they're handy in a fire fight situation too. It's not as if Eldar are lacking in anti-tank options, so I don't view their lack of AT as a problem.



I agree that they need to be backed up, but they're not quite as fragile as you make out. Being able to fall back to their transports, and then consolidate their standard move away is a massive advantage over other races, and helps to keep your formation intact.



I tend to agree with this. I learnt it the hard way when I played my first couple of games.

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Hi Esadous!

I use Scorpions and Banshees in a Vampire Raider to get in there and smash up FFighty formations in air assualt.

Otherwise my standard build is:
4 Dire Avengers
2 Firedragons (Exarch)
2 Dark Reapers (Autarch)
+4 Wave Serpents.

Throws out: 12x4+, 2x3+, 3x4+MW, 1x3+MW: Tasty! And they can lay a BM from 45cm away and shred infantry up close with shooting if need be.

I feel with hawks you pay extra for the teleport: which I'd NEVER use! 8 units trying not to roll a 1?! No thanks!

I've Seen Shining Spears used well many times as a formation on their own.

No opinion or experience with other Aspects.

Not having a dig either but I'll weigh in with Irasado and say that the hit like girls comment is unnecesary :-) I'm sure many people would find it a tad offensive.

Welcome to the boards!
Yrs,
Ryan :-)

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They don't. Both have two attacks in assaults per unit; both hit on 4+. How is this more attacks? The only difference 'tween the two units is that scorps need to get into close combat to work, while DA gets a one pip worse save.



Alright. Let's take this again.
Warp spiders suck. This is why:
They are a ground only unit. They have One attack each, hitting on 4+ in a firefight, with first strike. They have jump packs and infiltrate, meaning they have a 45cm threat range.
Let's take a few examples.
Assaulting infantry in cover or anything with a space marine-like save - that's the best they'll get, at least in the local meta: 4+ to hit, 4+ save -> one kill per 4 spiders. That's 2 kills, a combat resolution score of 4+dice assuming your exarches survivle the return fire. In a game where you're more than likely to be outnumbered by a fairly large factor, this is an assault you're not likely to win, yes, even if those 2 stands on the other side die before being able to fire back.
Dire Avengers, by comparison, have 2 attacks each, menaing a formation of 8 stands have 16 shots for an average of 4 kills on the same targets. Same with fire dragons, whose MW attacks make them a real threat to other types of targets too. The two extra attacks coming back are not enough to offset this.
They do have a niche to play, due to infiltrate and jump packs letting them move more freely than other aspects. However, this is only available in assaults; unless your opponents has a critical asset somewhere unreachable by, say, jet bikes or Shining Spears, they're simply not as good as the alternative.

Conclusion: Unless your opponent is playing an army that has a juicy target within 45cm which is immensely vulnerable to an assault and critical for his mission, the points would be better spent on something else.


I've argued this before; all I got back is, paraphrased 'They're the best aspects ever. You're an idiot'. I'm not likely to take that as a strong argument, especially when not backed up by nothing better than more insult.


Alright; maybe you play in a meta that emphasises armor less than the one I play in. When I've played them, they've always ended up either being assaulted or being part of an assault; their 45cm ap not playing any real part. Yes, they deal out a blast marker, and can sometimes kill a bit of inf - If they get to do Sustained fire, that's 4 kills a turn on a typical target - but 'tearing up' is hardly the picture I see.

What happens quite often here is that one serpent gets sniped first turn, the entire formation comes crashing back to the 15cm move of the grounded troops and is then utterly irrelevant the rest of the battle.

Glad we agree on something (o:
And that you don't try to defend Banshees.

I maintain that the Banshees, Spiders, and Scorpions are if not useless, then at the very least points that could be more efficiently spent on something else, Reapers are possibly decent against lots of small formations of low-save infantry that are too proud to use cover - not something I can recall having met in the last year, and Hawks are circumstantial at best.

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Parintachin,

Your assessment of the Scorpions (and other CC aspects) is flawed because you fail to take into account the CC value of the formation you are attacking. Most Epic players will use their CC aspects to attack units that have a weaker CC value than their respective FF value which drives casualties down, or go head-to-head with equally menacing CC enemies to prevent those hits from landing on softer targets in the rear. A 16% increase in armor is definitely worthwhile then. While I agree a pip-for-pip anaylsis has some of the Aspects looking a bit flat, the reality is game results posted here on the forums for the last nine years differs from your experience.

Don't take my word for it, however. Scour the army choices made by tournament goers and you'll see them frequently taken. Same thing with Warp Spiders. Dark Reapers make frequent appearances because of their ability to lay BMs. This gets into the subtleties of tactics and is difficult to measure, but hundreds of players disagree with you by virtue of playing these units and succeeding with them.

As a long time Eldar player, I understand the desire to strike hard with the Eldar and most beginner players make this mistake. They see the Eldar succeeding doing X or Y or Z, never considering the staying power of the army (which is low). They see an assault and know they can win it, but never consider that the formation is about to be vaporized on the following activation. Come turn 3, the Eldar player looks around and sees half his formations annihilated to the stand and wonder what happened.

It's because they played them like Orks or Imperial Guard.

No disrespect intended, but it seems that perhaps you just need to overcome a learning curve on those particular aspect types. Once you do that, you'll find them much better. Even Banshees, while arguably the weakest, will shine if used properly.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Another thing to remember about Warp Spiders specifically, is that, with their 45cm engage range, they should have little trouble clipping their target. You may very will only get the statistical 2 kills on a marine unit, but, if you've done it correctly, there's a good chance that the marine formation only had 2 stands in fire fight range. With no return casualties, that leaves you +2 from casualties, a further +2 from your 2 exarchs, and probably a further +1 from outnumbering.

+5 before blastmarkers are counted (and the aspects have a good chance of having no blastmarkers, assaulting out of a portal or from behind cover) is a very good position to be in for any assault formation.

You both got in first

To echo the others = As with many tools, Eldar need to be used well. The point about Aspects is that they all have their own niche where they will excel, while they can be very sub-par in other circumstances. Two examples:-

Warp Spiders clip 2-3 Rough Riders that happen to be intermingled with a mechanised HQ company which has been prepped with artillery earlier in the turn:- 8x First strike FF attacks take out the 3 nearby RRs, there is no return attacks (as the others are out of range). Eldar go into the assault resolution a minimum of 3+ even if the IG have two commisars, and that can really ruin the IG's day.
However if they assault the IG mechanised formation instead, they might get 5x kills but will almost certainly suffer 3-4 kills in return both reducing their chances of winning this combat and making them much less combat effective afterwards. (Retaining an effective Eldar force is an important lesson that is hard to learn.)

Alternatively consider Shining Spears Vs a Leman Russ company. If the SS get the drop on th LR and get all 8x units into B-B, they are likely to go into resolution 4+ up; but if they only assault at FF, the SS may get to assault resolution only 0-1+ at best.

And this brings up another point; Eldar are all about using their consolidation move to get into support range of another assault and preferably doing this several times. Whenever Eldar attack they must try to be reasonably sure of a win! This is actually where Warp Spiders and especially Swooping Hawks come into their own; being able to support another assault up to 50cm from the first one, and in the case of the SH, potentially up to 80 cms from where they started.

The complaint against Falcons is well made; they are both too fragile and expensive to use in great numbers as a transport.
However in those lists where 4x Aspect formations are permitted they can provide a very nasty surprise. Alternatively, you can mix in a couple of Swooping Hawks or Shining Spears with other aspects in Wave Serpents to give a bit more 'fast support' for initial assaults.

It is the ability to mix and match Aspects to the strategies that you intend to use which actually makes them probably the most flexible units in the game.

I was talking specifically about base contact. The reason why I made that point is for the reasons given by Moscovian in his reply to you. I like a mixture of base contact and fire fight units, because I often come across units which I would rather not get involved in FF exclusively, and this is where the Striking Scorpions come in handy.

The Warp Spider conundrum is answered by those above me, who are far more skilled at this game than I am, so I have nothing further to add to their analysis, other than to say that I agree with them.



I can't speak for others, but I haven't insulted you. I've just looked at the evidence from battle reports and posts on this and other forums over the last few years, and very few players are critical of Warp Spiders in the way in which you have been.



I feel as though I'm debating 40K with you here, not Epic. In my experience, Epic armies are far more balanced between infantry and vehicles, so I just don't think we're going to agree on this. Tearing up factors in the number of BMs that are going to be laid down by a combination of coming under fire and the casualties. Small formations could easily be made to fall back.

I agree larger formations can absorb it, but this is where other fire support units in the Eldar army come into play.

As for assaults, they're not too shabby in a fire fight, so if you can avoid a base contact situation, Dark Reapers do have a chance to come out on top. You can even play them aggressively if you like, and mount them inside Wave Serpents, in which case you could mix them with other Aspects, and make use of their FF value on your terms.



I haven't that happen to me very often. Whether that's because there is more terrain on my boards than yours, or my opponents aren't as good as yours, I don't know, but I tend to manage to keep them out of sight quite often, until they're in a position to attack, or provide my opponent with something else to shoot at.



That's up to you, but I just feel like I'm reading some kind of argument that is usually made about the Eldar in 40K, not Epic, which is a further reason why I'm having problems agreeing with it (I wouldn't even agree with such an analysis in 40K, but that's neither here nor there). It just doesn't mirror my experiences at all, so I can't go along with what you're saying I'm afraid.

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Irisado does make a very good point regarding terrain; Eldar need lots of it to hide in and behind. The 'tournament scenario' that most people seem to use as the basic format needs 12x reasonably large pieces that should result in ~25%-35% coverage. This allows the Eldar player to make it much harder to 'snipe' vital transports like Wave serpents, while also providing locations from which to use "pop-up" shooting or to launch a series of devastating assaults.

If you are concerned about the transports, one tactic is to keep your troops inside the transport so they perish if it is destroyed, thus retaining the desired speed for the formation. Given the speed of the transports, this is actually a very viable tactic that permits an extended assault threat (~50cm) which can give an unwary opponent a very nasty surprise, especially if you use the Supreme commander to "command" some nearby jet bikes or other support formation.

Finally one strategy is to use many smaller formations that can be combined together to meet given tactical situations, while retaining an activation advantage to allow the given formations to be placed to the best advantage.

What are good formations for NetEA Ulthwé lists? I never get to play my Eldar as it seems most of my opponents play them, so it's been a while since I tried.

I've tried 4 Hawks (annoying but not very dangerous) and 4 Dark Reapers in Falcons (expensive, almost requires a mechanized infantry formation so you get to use all the AP and AT hits) and occasionally 4 Spiders (they need support to do anything, so not as good as a full host). I've just painted up some Dire Avengers, but I feel that maybe the army has enough ff4+ units in wave serpents as it is.

Any cool ideas?

Hm .. Alright; I rest my case.

I don't particularly agree, and think many of the arguments can be disputed - countercharge and CC units being less flexible and exposed to more of the firefight attacks you wish to avoid specifically; but then, I cannot claim to have won hundreds of games with eldar. The 40K comparison is really odd; I haven't played that game for ten years.


But thanks, guys, for at least arguing the case instead of just being insulting (o:

I'll do some more clipping, and likely lots more losing in the future.

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i think that your main problem with aspects is that you miss all the posibilities when mixing them in a unit. for example, i use a unit with 3 striking scorpions, 3 avengers and 2 reapers on a vampire, striking scorpions provide armor and CC so that oposing cc units are forced to use their cc value, avengers provide raw ff and reapers provide with the posibility to add blast markers after the first attack and are awesome to add the exarchs so i get extra + ff attacks... its the combination of them what makes this unit so strong.

spiders are just awesome, good threat range, good armor and first strike. they usually do more casualtiies due to combat resolution than to real combat, so they struggle a bit against fearless oponents.