Agreed with Tiny Tim. However, the Phantom falls between two roles and tends not to fulfill either very well:-
The Revenants are more "shooty", and with their superior movement can inflict 8x MW4 to 80cm on a double (or ~4x hits), while the Phantom projects 4x MW4 to 100cm (or ~2x hits - though these are TK)

OTOH the Warlock with a fist is more "assaulty", and with the extra FF attacks and the additional abilities of Commander, Inspiring and Farsight, it is better able both to pass activation roles when damaged, to win or support assaults.

One last thought, be aware that the stats of the Eldar titans were revised a few years ago, so the Swordwind book and the GW online version are no longer considered accurate (though the 2008 FAQ and EPIC-UK online versions are correct). The most significant change was to the Pulsar rule where the 'repeating dice roll' mechanic was replaced by a straight 2x dice roll.

(corrected in italics))

Thats why I am asking for tips on how to use it - the way it sits awkwardly in the list compared to Warlocks and Revenants. Plus the fact I only have one powerfist - and that is attached to my warlock!

My gaming group uses the swordwind book as it is on the GW webiste, so Pulse is still 'repeating dice roll'. Thats the reason for the questions about the Dcannon etc.

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Given that you are still using the 'repeating dice roll' mechanic, Sustained fire becomes a really nasty attack, and even more so from Revenants (getting up to 12x MW hits), which will destroy most targets outright, and potentially destroy fully shielded titans.

The standard tactiic used in the past was to set up somewhere in your half of the table in a 'firelane' and wait for the target to appear. With some Scorpions in supporting positions (which are likely to get 3x MW hits even when moving) this kind of tactic can be used to lock down large sectioins of the table allowing you to advance under the cover of the guns. That said, the other titans are still significantly better than the Phantom in their given roles.

The other question is what game format are you using, and more importantly, how much terrain is on the table?

Standard GT scenario, but with not much terrain - mostly low stuff.

What about the other weapon options?

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A twin pulsar Phantom can be useful against high value armoured targets, particularly Marines, but a powerfist equipped Phantom is more versatile, as it can double>fire>support to greater effect. It's still worth spending the extra 100pts to get a Warlock though, as those things are absolute monsters in combat.

Revenants I'm not so keen on with the NetEA rules, as a double nets you 8x MW5+ (instead of MW4+ in the Swordwind and EpicUK rules) which doesn't make up for their extreme fragility.

As for jetbikes and vypers - I've found that jetbikes aren't that great in assaults due to their small no.s and average saves, whereas I've had a lot of success with all vyper fms as high mobility harassment fms. Their shooting isn't great, but it's not bad either, and they're still useful as support in assaults. People do use windriders very differently though.

From your earlier post, I suspect that you are still using 'Spirit Stones' as well - which were also removed some years ago

Well, if you are using the 'standard' GT scenario, you should have 12 pieces of terrain, each 6"-12" square, covering ~33% of the table. You can discuss LoS and whether Titans can see over terrain etc in the 5 min warm up (in the UK we tend to prohibit this for simplicity and speed).

The only other weapon option to the Phantom is 1x Titan Pulsar and 1x Power fist. This obviously reduces its long range fire capabilities further, while increasing the close range and assault capabilities. Lurking behind some centrally placed piece of terrain, this means that a Phantom can really dominate a 2' diameter part of the table, and can obviously severly influence nearby assaults (provided they are in LoS of course ). In this role, you need to have 2-4 formations in its 'battle group' both for attack and defence, and if you can pull off a 'rolling assault' this means that the Phantom can influence assaults 50cm apart, contributing a very respectable 9x 3+ dice.

The main difference here is that the Phantom usually needs to assault with other formations (or to bounce off a weak target), while the Warlock can attack alone with more confidence, and this tends to influence the army make-up a little.

However, one of the joys of the Eldar list is the considerable variety of ways it can be used, and ultimately you need to find the list that suits your style of play. In any event, you should play very conservatively at the start of the game trying to use your superior speed and terrain cover to manoeuver your formations into an advantageous position with minimal casualties - a high activation count really helps here (10-12 in a 3K game). Move your Phantom late in the 1st turn to keep options open, and even consider marching if that is more advantageous.

Finally Jetbikes are relatively fragile by themselves, but their mobility means they can assault targets at 50cm, and support assaults up to 85cm away. They really come into their own when intermingled with Guardians in WS or Aspects with the Autarch, as both can use commander to launch massive assaults, and bounce the bikes into a supporting position for further assaults. In this respect the Eldar 'rolling assault' can be really effective - and if pulled off with a Phantom (or Warlock) nearby, you are very likely to remove up to three significant enemy formations while also manoeuvering the Eldar into more favourable positions - but that does take a lot of skill and forethought

Thanks Ginger.

Yes, still using spirit stones. Basically using Swordwind and the Rulebook as written.

I wasn't really talking about the Phantom with Pulsar and Fist (If only i had enough power fists...!) but about those weapons in the collectors section of Swordwind:

Heat Lance
Tremor Cannon
D-Cannon

and how they best worked etc.

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Swordwind was determined to be kind overpowered - mostly because of Spirit Stones. Without them, the list's pretty good. With it, it's better than good.

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As SN says, the Swordwind list as written was considered to be rather over-powered in a number of ways, the Spirit Stones being one of them as it allows Eldar formations to shed BMs too easily. However their entire removal is also considered (by some) to be a step too far in the other direction. In the UK, we allow support formations to buy Spirit stones for 25pts which seems to be about right (though it might be even fairer if these were represented by a 'leader' character like other armies).

Sorry, I cannot help with those "other" weapons as I have no experience of them. However while on paper the "Fusion Lance" and "Tremor Cannon" seem to be plausible, the D-cannon could be rather overpowered, though very variable in effect. This is because it is used in conjunction with the Titan with 1+ initiative and a second weapon as well as Holofields. This would turn the Phantom into a 'titan killer' par excellence, while it would equally be very dangerous to smaller targets. As you may note, the D-cannon actually gets more powerfull the larger the titan, so on a good day, the 3-4BP template placed on another titan allows half the DC in dice rounded up (4 for a Warlord, 6 for a Great Gargant), and with average die rolls thereafter that is ~7-8 damage on a Warlord, ~10-11 damage on the Gargant, with extremes of no damage to a theoretical 24 and 36 damage respectively - more than enough to wipe out either titan (the figures get even more ridicullous when applied to the Emperor titan ).

Note, two Cobras armed with a slightly weaker version of the D-cannon are also theoretically very potent, but their speed, relatively weak armour and limited range with a 2+ initiative make them very hard to use effectively - though Spirit Stones do help.

Hi Ginger

I have seen your Eldar tactics notes in a couple of threads (some here and some in Net EA Eldar development section. Any chance you can consolidate them, and even better supplement them with maybe an army overview. I have seen a couple of posters refer to several Eldar list buildtypes but I have nt seen anyone go into them in any detail.

My knowledge of EA Eldar is virtually non-existant. I have never played with them, and my only game against them was IIRC against you some 6 years ago. I have a copy of Swordwind but I gather a lot has changed since then. I have downloaded the 2010 Net EA Army Compendium for Eldar, but without a change log from the list as published in Swordwind, I find it a bit daunting to work out what has changed. (I know about spirit stones removal).

Has anyone got any good introductory 3k Eldar lists? Preferably Biel-Tan.

Thanks

James

If you want the basic changes which were officially made to the Eldar, you need only look at page six of GW's Epic Errata PDF. Even if you don't want to use it, you'll be able to see some of the progression from the GW rules to NetEA rules.

As for a 3000 point list, I thought that there was at least one in this thread, but if not, then a core of Aspect Warriors mounted in Wave Serpents with Guardian and titan support is my recommedation.

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A few builds-

The best list that I've played against using a Warlock and trying to do triple rolling assaults-
Warlock titan
Aspects (IIRC avenger) with Exarch+Autarch in Wave serpents
Guardians in Wave serpents
Guardians in Wave serpents
Void spinner
jetbikes
jetbikes
rangers x4
rangers x4
Avatar

Another rolling assault list but using revenants
wraithgate
guardians+wraithguard+support weapons
guardians in wave serpents
guardians in wave serpents
rangers x4
rangers x4
falcons - 2 firestorms
falcons- 2 firestorms
storm serpent
nightwings
revenants

Aspect heavy -
Avatar
Wraithgate
Guardians w 2 heavy weapons
Aspects - Swooping hawks +Exarch+autarch
Aspects - 2 Reaper exarchs, 4 reapers , 2 avengers
Aspects - 2 dragon exarchs, 4 dragons, 2 avengers
Vampire
Vampire
rangers x 4
falcons with 2 firestorms
falcons with 2 firestorms
Void spinner
void spinner
6 vypers

My favourite list that I've used
Guardians with 3 heavy weapons
Aspects - 2 dragon exarchs, 2 reapers, 4 avengers
Aspects - dragon autarch, dragon exarch, 2 reapers, 4 avengers
Void spinner
Falcons -2 firestorms
Falcons- 2 firestorms
wraithgate
jetbikes - 1 vyper
rangers x 5
rangers x 5
vampire
vampire
nightwings
wraithship

Rangers act as a terminator screen for the spinner, guard the blitz and provide stalling formations, void spinner and spaceship attempt to take out artillery or thin out hordes and then spinner hunts broken formations later. Jetbikes provide objective grabbing speed, nightwings protect from air assault, guardians start in gate and try and march/double out to deliver the avatar into assault in turn2/3. Falcons hunt AV or small WE and provide anti-interceptor flak umbrella for the aspect-laden vampires. Aspects air assault high % targets such as warhounds or double up to attack bigger formations with one landing and shooting from 10-15cm away and then being in FF support for 2nd formation to assault
PROS
Vampire-Aspects air assaults are lethal
good against most races -ship+spinner very useful against IG+orks, nightwings against thawks
CONS
SC is not on board until late in turn 1
BTS+SC in same formation which is an assault formation so has to be in dangerous places

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Thanks guys

I like the Aspect heavy force, as I would be doing Biel-Tan and thus would aim to include Void Spinner. I have always loved the Vampire model.

Cheers

James

The Swordwind Biel Tan were considered to be somewhat overpowered; went through extensive discussions and were modified in the official 2008 changes that are reflected in the GW site (free download). The main changes were to drop Spirit Stones altogether and amend 'Pulsar' to be 2x shots on the relevant weapons (there are a number of other minor changes to particular units).

Eldar were always intended to be brittle but very powerfull if allowed to maintain their strategic aims; so called 'soap bubbles' armed with sledgehammers. As such there are three cardinal rules:-
- Keep the BMs on the formations to a minimum by extensive use of cover and Marshalling
- make best use of the various special rules especially 'Hit-&-run to achieve the Eldar speed advantage
- Only assault when you are certain of winning; which also means keeping safe and preserving the army until that point.

Eldar work best with a high activation count, ideally achieving a 2+ advantage over the opposition. However the various army lists all force hard choices on the player, so at 3000 points or less you are usually only able to play to a single strategy and choose formations accordingly. On the whole, the Eldar tend to work better in higher point games; at 4000 points and higher, players can choose armies with multiple strategies which makes the list both more flexible and more powerfull.

While the rules force you to take warhosts, always take at least one set of guardians to be able to use the Farseer rules (second retain; the Avatar; 'commander' and strong unit capabilities).

• 'Naked' the guardians are very vulnerable, but can be a usefull Blitz guard especially if the Blitz is a Wraithgate and three such formations are kept off-table.
• Upgraded with Wave Serpents they become a very potent strike force; with the guardians inside the WS for protection they have a 55cm assault range (35cm move, +5cm disembark, +15cm FF), though recommended practice is to dismount behind the WS to ensure that the first 4x hits are absorbed by the WS armour
• Upgraded with WraithGuard and or Wraith Lords, they are a very potent assault force when deployed from 'Gates (Wraith Gate or Storm Serpent), though these can be countered, which is why you should always take several 'gates if using any.
• Put in Vampire they do make a good strike force, but the Vampire is very vulnerable to AA and the (hopefully) victorious Guardians equally vulnerable to enemy counters. As a consequence this is probably the weakest strategy. (Though I agree with Steve that Aspects in Vampires are deadly).

Aspects and how to use them is are a complete thread of it's own. You should also always have at least one Aspect warhost to gain the Autarch and the Supreme commander reroll. After that they all have strengths and weaknesses, though the Warp Spiders are arguably the best and the Banshees arguably the worst (though still very strong if deployed in Wave Serpents).

Regarding the other formations; I always take at least one formation of Rangers, and usually a Void Spinner and one set of Night wings (though this latter depends on whether Spaceships or Titans are to be used).
Fire Storms (with Falcons) provide good though brittle AA that needs to keep in cover as much as possible; Fire Prisms are even more brittle (though longer ranged), but a very good deterrent to Marine THawks and Ork Landas.
Jet Bikes are an excellent support formation:- double and shoot (with a Vyper) to place a BM, repeat with a second formation, then assault with warhost of choice; a *really* deadly tactic is for Guardians in WS to use Commander to order a combined assault with two Bike formations; when victorious the entire lot can consolidate to support a further assault. Combine this tactic with Shining spears and further bikes and you can take out titans through shear assault firepower.
(At one Britcon in a 4000 pts army I took this approach to an extreme with 8x bikes, 3x Guardians in WS, Shining Spears, 3x Rangers, Void Spinner and Night Wings. The main problem being moving all the formations and processing the large attacks it generates).

The Eldar are probably my favourite army because of the variety of strategy and tactics they can use (see Steve’s lists as an example). They are also my least favourite because of their 2+ initiative and my almost legendary ability to roll ‘1’s

Thanks Ginger- they will be the 4th force I get painted up, but I have made good progress on painting Orks and IG, so not too long hopefully.

Cheers

James