When the critical happened on the Gorgon in the photo above, I don't believe it made any difference to the game as the infantry would have done exactly the same thing but with 3 more BM's. It did look funny though!

Well with respect, this is the first time many of them have played Epic and certainly the first time they've faced Krieg. I started this thread to try and provide helpful information in one place. Trying to tell them these things as they are setting up for the game isn't really helpful. These huge formations are not often available to most armies and it's quite daunting to try and deal with. The fact that they are being played by one of the best gamers I know is challenging for us!

We have also been allowing the Gorgons to barge through their own infantry in counter-charges. Preventing this will make a difference.

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I agree. 650 is the price bracket of things like Ravagers, Reavers and two Revenant Titans, not 20 unarmoured infantry taking turns to fire the one heavy stubber from a list that requires 1 of these for every 2 support formations. These things really have to be judged in context



That sounds like clever placement of formations by the Krieg player to me
If the Necrons lose, they get out of jail free with their retreat into a monolith portal - now that's another absolutely superb transport vehicle. If they win, then yes I would hope that they have at least picked up enough blast markers and casualties that when 2 other assault formations that cost about 1000 points hit them they will lose the following fights.
Of course, if they lose without being wiped out they get another chance to escape off the board via monolith and regenerate between turns.

All that to say plenty of other armies have good rules and formations too.



As far as I know any infantry charged by Terminators would have to stay in contact with the terminators. If the Gorgon barges the terminators the infantry would have to be dragged along for the ride and take their macroweapon medicine like guardsmen.


Let's try get that rules question nailed down.
[] We know from the rules that Gorgons can move in a counter charge
[] We know from the FAQ that War Engines can barge in a counter charge
[] We know from the rules that AV can move over their own infantry without impediment
[] The process for barging is 'Move the war engine as far as desired, and then place any units that were barged out of the way as close as you can to their starting point, while still touching the base of the war engine that so rudely pushed them aside. The maximum number of units a war engine can barge aside in this manner is two per point of its starting damage capacity.'

That's all pretty clear so far. As I understand it, the type of scenario still being debated is:

[] If a War Engine can reach enemy units that are already in contact with friendly infantry, can it barge them out of the way and have them placed as close as possible to their starting point, now touching the base of the war engine AND the infantry they had already contacted (which is likely to drag the friendly infantry slightly too)?

[] Is it illegal for a War Engine's barge move into enemy formations to cause any change in the position of friendly infantry that were in contact with barged units from the enemy formation?

Non-WE units already in contact with the enemy are not allowed a counter assault move of their own, but I've not been able to find anything in 1.12.4 Counter charges or 3.3 War Engine Assaults that indicates the barges are impossible if the enemy formation is already in base contact with friendly infantry.
Other points of view are welcome.

I'd say that you would have to do your countercharge in such a way that you didn't end the move on top of friendly units. If, after that, the friendly inf units lose contact with barged enemy units they should probably be moved, but I don't think the rules cover that?

I agree with this.

Here's what I wrote about this on another forum.

"Any vehicle can most certainly move over friendly infantry, no problem there.
The key word is over (or more literally, through). The infantry cannot be moved at all as a result of the War Engines movement. If there is no clear space on the other side of the infantry (taking into account the War Engines movement and base size), the War Engine cannot counter-charge over them. I would add that the friendly infantry could counter-charge themselves to make room for the War Engine but they cannot be barged by their own War Engine.

The problem arises when those intervening friendly infantry are in base contact with an enemy and where there is no clear space for the War Engine to be placed.

In this case, the War Engine simply has to move around the friendly troops. If it can reach the enemy then it can barge the enemy. If it can't reach the enemy, then no barging can happen.

This makes the most sense and follows the rules as written in the book."

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Well, also with respect, your opening post had things like "Is there another armour rating that would fit the 40k stats and make the Gorgons a little more playable?" and "certain formations being so good that just costing more points was not a strong enough factor to balance the unit. These formations, in the right hands, are seemingly game changing", somewhat assuming that the Gorgons were broken, and it's taken a while to pin down that the Krieg player is a very experienced player who's stomping all over a bunch of newbies... :-)

Epic being such a tactical game, I guess I'm not all that surprised that such a thing would happen, it shows how different Epic is from a "railroad tactics" game like 40k, where 'tactics' like: "Charge their hardest formation with my hardest formation" generally work! :-)

It'll be interesting to see whether any of the advice in this thread will help out.

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It will indeed and thanks for your input.
My original post was trying to make sure that Gorgons were as tough in 40K as they are in Epic. It was a genuine question from a non 40K player. And I'd describe Matt more as a natural born wargamer than experienced (in this case). He's only been playing Epic for about 6 months but he throws himself into things 100%. I've learnt a lot from playing games with him and he's become a good mate.

Do you have a point of view on War Engines being able to counter-charge through (into or onto) their own infantry?
This one point will go a long way to making the Krieg formations a little less like banging your head against a brick wall. At the moment, Matt has been taking so few casualties from assaults that they are a fore gone conclusion (even when facing other assault based armies).

A clever attacker should be able to maneuver his forces so as to hit the squishy infantry and not the super heavy transports. This would reward tactical thinking which is a good thing.

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Judging by the rules and that FAQ that lets WE's barge (Friendly) units out of the way, I'd say it looks allowable.


Even other assault based armies like Space Marines should generally have more ranged firepower than the Krieg.

Bring down the Gorgons before engaging them, even if that means you have to hold off for a turn or two whilst your Marines wait for your Warhounds & Reavers*** to destroy the Gorgons, or your Orks hit the Gorgons with Supa-Zzapp gunz, or your Steel Legion kill Gorgons with their Volcano Cannons.

Without the Gorgons, the Krieg infantry companies are easy meat, but you'll need patience. Pick off the weaker formations around the edges, degrade his starting number of activations (Already kinda low, an intentional weakness of Krieg armies) before pouncing late in turn 2 and early in turn 3.

Don't just fly your Thunderhawk or Landa into the teeth of 20 Krieg Guard units and 2 Gorgons and expect to win. You wouldn't be able to do that against a Steel Legion mech. inf. company with Chimeras, why should you be able to do it with a mech. Krieg inf. company?



***Reavers are actually a lovely anti-Krieg unit, because their great AT fire can kill the Gorgons, whilst the template attack can kill the infantry around them, a lovely double threat. Suggest people start using Reaver Titans.

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Posts from earlier in the thread.



*Edited to include some more quotes.

The FAQ actually says this regarding barging:
I cannot see anywhere that War Engines can barge friendly units out of the way.

The FAQ that causes confusion is this one:
Note that I believe this is referring to enemy units only.

This makes sense and satisfies the rules as written.

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I got the impression that the FAQ was intended to allow you to barge friendly units out of the way (Which isn't actually allowed in the original rules). My thoughts aren't 100% concrete on it at this point.

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Well, if we're being specific, you said:


Is a baneblade really sufficiently beefy to defeat one of these companies? In any case, I wasn't trying to single out anyone in particular, apologies if it came across that way. My point was merely that counters to gorgons (or more realistically the formation as a whole) generally seem to cost more points and the cost for this formation seems cheap on first inspection [but I've never played them].

On the points cost (GlynG), maybe 650 is too much, but that is not the same as saying 425 is right. I only play Eldar (for now...) so my standard of comparison is the equivalent engagement formation, aspects. They have the same initial cost, but aspect transport costs 200 points and is probably "as good" (poorer armour & single damage points cripple the speed, but are faster and skimmers). The aspects also pretty much need the exarch upgrades. To be honest, I know which formation I'd rather have at those points costs...

Also, are Krieg really a low activation army? Matt's has 11 activations, 11 war engines, and 3 upgraded companies.

Again, after all this I still think they're no worse than other armies' tricks (maybe I'll change my mind if I ever face them!).

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Hah, can we have a separate thread for this one? I want to know what its downfall is.

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Aspects have a better SR, better Initiative, can come out of wraithgates, can consolidate at full speed after an engagement, and generally are very good at particular specialities... I'd say it's better to pick a formation from a similar Imperial Guard army, than an army as different as the Eldar, when making comparisons.


11 activations is about average, but most armies will bring more activations to the table in a tournament situation in my experience (Exceptions: Minervans, AMTL).

Several of his activations are also pretty weak and easy to degrade (Flak, Rough Riders, Shadowswords) with the correct tools.
In pushing for as many hard ground activations as possible he has a notable weakness against aircraft (Light flak, no fighter cover).
His ranged firepower is limited to 2 Shadowswords and 3 Warhounds... shooty armies (Such as a fairly typical Steel Legion or Tau army) should be able to degrade his war engines quickly, even Marine armies with let's say a Reaver and a Squadron of Lascannon Predators should be able to do serious damage to it.

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I wouldn't mind meeting that particular Krieg list with my Squats

Fine, except aspects are the same price as the infantry company... none of those things apply only to the 200 points of wave serpents. Bear in mind you get 8 compared to 20! To be honest I'm not trying to come up with a points cost by comparing apples and oranges, just it seems like 200 is a VERY different cost to 125 which is why it stuck out at me. Anyway I'll shut up about it now because I don't know anything about Krieg really



Interesting, when looked at his list I basically took the opposite of your conclusions!

11 activations still seems a lot to be called a "low activation army". I thought it had a good number of ground activations. I would say low is 8, and average maybe 10 (which if he had put the warhounds in a pack to make them resilient, he would have had). I usually aim to have a lot with Eldar, managing 12 if I avoid expensive armour formations, but a few of those are normally reserves, combined (e.g. air assault) or one-shot (the avatar). What would you say is a "high" number of activations for a tournament? I struggle to imagine "most" armies bringing more than 11 - probably siegemasters, but probably not steel legion, for example.

I also thought it had decent firepower in it too for how Matt described his army (i.e. an engagement force). There's a fair amount of MW across those titans and SHTs. OK not as good as Steel Legion, but that's hardly a fair comparison. And are marines with both a reaver and predators common occurrences?

And in a similar vein, what in an army would you describe as "medium flak" or "heavy flak"? (Again from your tournament perspective). I agree about the lack of fighters though.

Overall I thought it was a good list, sure beatable if you designed a list to fight it but quite prepared against other tournament lists.

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Fair question. They got the stats pretty much spot on for representing the 40k version, which is armour 14/14/10 (as good as a Leman Russ on the front, better than a Russ on the sides, but without the Landraider's thick rear armour).



Yes, Krieg are low activation because they require 1 Core per 2 Support, and the Core are expensive infantry formations (300 to 525 points) or a dozen rough riders (with their own restrictions.) Added to that is the burden that AA can't be added to formations and has to be bought by itself as a Support formation.

For comparison, my 3000 point Mossinian Rebels list has about 22 activations, each one weaker than the last

Including Warhounds in a Krieg list helps because they don't require corresponding Core, but in order to get more than 4 support formations a Krieg player is basically forced to buy 60 infantry. That's a lot both in points and the 300 tiny men from the 6mm retailers




Two units cant occupy the same space, so a Gorgon can't end any move on top of infantry.



If the WE can't reach the enemy that are in contact with the friendly infantry they can't counter charge unless there is some clear space to be placed.
If the WE can reach the enemy that are in contact with the friendly infantry then they can barge them, which may mean the friendly infantry are dragged along, possibly creating the space the WE needs to be placed in.

I can't see any way for a WE to change the position of friendly infantry unless they are attached to enemies that are being barged, so for instance if it's a fire fight and there are 5cm+ of infantry stands between the gorgon and the enemy then the gorgon will either not be able to move at all or will have to slowly go round.
Is that the answer you're looking for?