Ok land raider[glow][/glow]s are not a fair comparison and that's not really what I was trying to say. Rather that they are kinda min-maxed for their role and possibly too cheap on first inspection.

It's difficult to compare directly as no other armies have an equivalent, but there are plenty of guard dc3 war engines for far greater cost...

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I've played Krieg and the Gorgons seem ok as they are to me - they have their limitations and a company with Gorgons is pretty costly. Don't just consider the price on their own but in conjunction with the company and in the list as a whole.

Krieg AA formations can be upgraded with 3 Trojans for free (included in the price of the formation). This doesn't sound like much but they are invariably deployed in cover and it takes that little bit more to deal with them. The formation can be Garrisoned on Overwatch aswell (half units in formation are movement zero).

I believe an auto destruct critical is in order for Gorgons.

As I mentioned, it is very hard to try and hit the smaller formations when there are 3 of these infantry/Gorgon formations on the board. They don't have to be everywhere. They need to be near objectives and other weaker formations. A clever Krieg player does not have to leave the weaker formations exposed.

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Firstly: i didnt say "use a CCW titan" i said, use a war engine. any war engine, be it a gorgon of your own, a baneblade, or a tripleburnerfist-warlord, will do.

It can firstly barge its way through infantry, connecting with as much DC as possible. remember that a warengine can barge twice its DC, but can also only be in BTB with twice its DC. so if you can achieve that with infantry, then his countermoving gorgons cant get into BTB with you regardless, since you're already in BTB with as many models as you are allowed.*

secondly, it can split its fire between FF and CC as much as it wants. so a gorgon charges into CC with a baneblade, great, the baneblade (or better yet, stormhammer) says "nads to you, i shall fire my 3 shots as FF anyway" and thus, those shots cannot be hit against the gorgon and its armour. meanwhile, the gorgon is blocking a quantity of his troops from firefighting your baneblade, and you have as good an armour as them anyway. they outnumber you, they have a blast marker (if they dont have a blast marker then you done ****ed up son) you both have inspiring, you'll beat them on kills. thus, you should win the assault. gorgons are too slow to run away from combat very well (especially if the sentinels you shot with to put the BM in have hemmed them in) so they'll be largely cut down. hurrah for a crippled formation of scared little infantry.

and thirdly, if you do have your superwarlord, it will not be expended dealing with these krieg fellows, you dont need 3000 points to kill his 1300, you need 1000 points, since after a turn of fighting, your superwarlord will still be rocking around ready to kill a new gorgon-blob.

(*as an interesting aside here, how about this for a fun piece of RAW interpretation. A baneblade has a DC of 3, and thus, can be contacted by a total of 6 units in BtB. A warlord titan has a DC of 8, it counts as 8 units. thus, it cannot move into BtB with a baneblade because doing so would require the baneblade being in BtB with more than double its DC. this is even more hilariously stupid when you apply it to basic infantry. a baneblade is allowed to be in BtB with 6 infantry stands, but an infantry stand is only allowed to be in BtB with a third of a baneblade... this thought experiment brought to you by thinking "what if you have, say, 4 infantry in BtB with your baneblade, surely the gorgon, which counts as 3, cannot then countercharge into you since it will take you over your max of 6
as much as this particular interpretation seems silly, i cannot see anything in the rules that does not support it fully. a warlord counts as 8 models, only 6 models can charge a baneblade, thus, a warlord cannot charge a baneblade...)

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RAW scare me. *scurries off to do some research*

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SG

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OK. War Engines count "as a number of units equal to their starting DC when working out if one side outnumbers the other." Thus they count as one unit at all other times.

"A War Engine may be charged by up to two enemy unts per point of it's starting DC."
"The maximum number of units a WE may barge aside in this manner is two per point of starting DC. Note that WE may not barge other WE out of the way"

Thus a Baneblade could be charged by up to six Warlords, since each is one unit except for the purposes of outnumbering. Your four Infantry would be barged aside and the Baneblade would contact the Gorgon (5 units) but would stop there (may not barge WE).

That sound right?

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nope. half way through the third paragraph of 3.0
"For most rules purposes, a war engine counts as being ‘worth’ a number of units equal to its starting damage capacity"
i dont imagine "for most rules" translates into "in one small instance when calculating results of an assault"

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Missed that. There's a lot of grey in that vague "and so on" at the end of the sentence. I'd also question whether the WE being "worth" units equal to it's starting DC is the same as it "counting as" units equal to it's starting DC. It's an interesting interpretation. I'd still disagree, but I understand how you came to that conclusion.

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oh, i dont think its a good ruling, infact, its really a terrible one. (for one thing, it totally bones abbatoirs, and makes warlords, and even warhounds that bit more indestructable, since terminators and whatnot can no longer make it into combat) its just that its a fairly much what the rules say, and once you start to ask what happens when a mixed formation of war engines and infantry is charged by another war engine, it starts to unravel. i find it hard to believe that a baneblade can be charged by 6 warlords. i find it hard to believe that if a baneblade is large enough to be charged by 6 infantry, then it makes no difference if it has been charged by 5 infantry and another baneblade.

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Hi Everyone, it's Matt, the guilty Krieg player


I'll be happy to post the army lists I use at the end of this thread, and also contribute ideas of how to kill Krieg armies like my own. I played a game vs Steve where I used his Necrons vs my Krieg and frankly shredded it, so it's possible

FIRST POINT: Krieg Are Assault Troops.
Everyone I play charges head long into Gorgon infantry the first time they meet them. They cannot believe their luck to be facing Imperial Guardsmen outside of cover, its going to be a slaughter... and then look shocked as 26 dice come back at them and overwhelm them. They usually adjust the next time they meet Krieg on the field, but the first one is genuinely a shock.

The reason for this is because Krieg are Assault troops. They are more focussed on Assault than TERMINATORS, which you only really understand when you realise that Krieg Infantry get 1 Heavy Stubber (1xAP6) per 300 to 400 points spent, while the equivalent points cost of terminator will be armed with assault cannons etc for ranged fire options.
This means Krieg are not your standard Guard army that can shoot autocannons and stand off from a distance, they need to earn their points in firefights. Guard are generally accepted as a ranged army and Krieg infantry are shockingly bad at ranged fire, even their dedicated fire support upgrades only get a single AC and a poxy HS, so the components of the army has to be judged in context.

SECOND POINT: Gorgons make Krieg Offensive
Gorgons aren't ideal transports in some ways; they are slow (20) and they are extremely vulnerable to TK weapons because a single Shadowsword hit can take out not just half your transports but also the 10 infantry stands inside it.

On the other hand, Gorgons are 4+ Reinforced, which means that if they can manage to get the Gorgon in position to take the first hits from either firefight or assault it becomes feasible to operate the infantry out of cover and on the attack. While the Gorgons hold they will allow the formation to actually take and make saves, so tactics for the Krieg player should revolve around getting the gorgons placed correctly in assaults and tactics for their opponents should revolve around making sure they can't.


So how do you kill them?
1) TK Weapons. Steve said that 'I was quite unlucky with this tactic I will admit' which was true in our last game where every TK shot from his pylons missed (which is more to do with Black Magic than how good Krieg are lol), but in an earlier game his first activation was a Pylon that vaporised a Gorgon and 10 infantry, including my supreme commander. That stung

2) Macro Weapons.

3) Ranged Anti tank - every shot that penetrates the armour has a 1/6 chance of immobilising a gorgon, which is a very big deal for a formation with only 2 transports.

4) Blast weapons - this isn't as obvious, but their appeal is they force the krieg player to either stay inside the gorgon (making them vulnerable to being locked in by CC assaults and to all dying to a TK weapon), or being out of the vehicle in a tight cluster that can have up to 20 infantry under blast markers without saves.
The most annoying version of this I have faced is the Necron Orb; stay in the transport and get hit by TK weapons, or stay outside and get hit by its 12BP.

5) Assaulting from a flank - it is extremely hard to get both Gorgons to the front if hit from the side, so after the 3rd hit on the gorgon every hit should kill an infantryman.

6) Pin men in place with CC - once they are actually in contact with opponent's CC, they're going to have to fight. The Gorgon can barge and try contact a few enemy, but the ones in base contact stay in base contact.

7) Set up other formations to draw the counter charge away - this should be any teleporting army's bread and butter, since they can set up multiple formations to ensure the counter charges go in the wrong direction. In the photos Steve posted with Green terminators, they all just came in one at a time with thunderhawks arriving in later turns, and got beat up. To be fair it was my opponent's first try against Krieg.

8 ) Go into base contact with the gorgons if the infantry are still inside, even if you are better in FF than CC and even if you can only lock one of the two Gorgon's men inside. That's 10 men kept out of the fight and so vulnerable to dying with the gorgon that the Krieg player should probably choose to take some hits on other infantry instead of 3 on the gorgon.

9) Clip the formation like you would any other large assault formation. That way even if one gorgon does make it in to FF range, at least you aren't facing the full 26 dice.

As requested, here is my 3000pt army list. It's evolved over time as I have got better at performing assaults (believe it or not, the Infantry Company in the photos above fought FOUR assaults in the first turn of that game), and thus has had artillery etc decline as the ranks of infantry have swollen.

MATT'S HOTH IMPERIAL GUARD
REGIMENTAL HQ [525]
Death Korps Supreme Commander Darth Vader, 19 Death Korps Infantry, Siege Transports (2 Gorgons)

INFANTRY COMPANY [425]
Death Korps Commander General Veers, 19 Death Korps Infantry, Siege Transports (2 Gorgons)

INFANTRY COMPANY [425]
Death Korps Commander Apology Accepted, 19 Death Korps Infantry, Siege Transports (2 Gorgons)

3 Hydra or Heavy Anti-Aircraft Platform
3 Hydra or Heavy Anti-Aircraft Platform
6 Death Korps Rough Riders (with "scout" ability)
Shadowsword
Shadowsword
Warhound Titan
Warhound Titan
Warhound Titan

As a final note, I think that is a great army that suits me well but it isn't really the easiest force to use. I must be doing something right with my tactics to have made a situation where the guy using 86 Skorchaz isn't taking flak for an overpowered list

A critical destruct on a transport that carries 10 stands of infantry and a supreme commander? They'd be dropped faster than a telesales call at midnight.

As it is, the immobilised result not only takes out half the transport ability of the formation, it also completely removes their ability to assist in assaults against anyone who doesn't conciously choose to charge the immobilised gorgon itself. That's a big win for the opponent in itself.

Here's what the aftermath of an immobilised result looks like. I still got to the objective but thank goodness we didn't roll for another turn with those men spread out in a clippable conga-line like that

Haha, classic. Was leaving the disabled one behind and taking the BMs not an option?

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This appears to be reason #1 as to why people in this campaign are losing against the Krieg.

They're thinking that they play like the Steel Legion, or the Baran Siegemasters, when their playstyle is actually completely different.

They are an engagement FF meatgrider army (Crap at shooting, Good at Firefights), and people in this campaign appear to think that they're more like a Steel Legion mech. inf army (Good at shooting, Moderate at Firefights).

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I dont disagree with you here, but 5x LR would also cost between 250pts and 375pts, depending on which points values you use

I was considering three LR Crusaders @75 pts each (so 3DC, transports 9x infantry, limited firepower, good assaults capability etc) - all for 225pts. If you deduct some for the ATSKNF, better strategy etc you come down to 150-175pts minimum - - - not 50pts - 75pts a unit.

Matt-Shadowlord makes some very good points about dealing with them: essentially keep them at a distance, outmanoeuver them, preferably use cross-fire, disrupt etc if you do not have MW or better TK weaponry etc.
The usual statement at this point is that you will learn your preferred methods of handling this particular bogeyman with experience

You really think a basic Krieg company with Gorgons is worth as much as 600-650 points? (you really need to analyse the two together and in the context of the army as a whole rather than the transports cost separately) Krieg armies are already often on the lower end of the activation scale as is without having to completely cripple them.