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6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
pixelgeek
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:58 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 04 2004 Jan.,10:32)
IF GW hasn't thrown in the towel by then, then, I'll buy BIG! ?

But GW isn't producing or distributing the game (at least in the UK).

I still wonder why people can't/don't differentiate between Fanatic and GW. It would certainly stop people having such inflated estimates of release dates and product range availability.

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Jackhammer
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:29 pm 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 04 2004 Jan.,19:58)
I still wonder why people can't/don't differentiate between Fanatic and GW. It would certainly stop people having such inflated estimates of release dates and product range availability.

Because Fanatic is a part of Games Workshop, albeit a smaller division. Most people realise the relative lack of resources from the Fanatic studio and further differentiation is just a matter of semantics.
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Jimbo
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:35 pm 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 04 2004 Jan.,19:58)
But GW isn't producing or distributing the game (at least in the UK).

another person who is under the mistaken impression that Fanatic is a separate company to GW, Fanatic (or more correctly Specialist Games) only consists of about seven people and they can not and do not produce or distribute their games.

Here are some quotes
The Fanatic design studio is a special little bit of Games Workshop that has been to set up to provide on-going support for the specialist games range.
http://www.specialist-games.com/studio.asp

Specialist Games - Over the years Games Workshop has produced some great games other than Warhammer ?and Warhammer 40,000. Until recently these games were only released for a limited ?period of time. However such has been the demand to keep the games in print that ?we?ve decided to make six of them available permanently. We?ve called ?this range the Games Workshop Specialist Games Range
Games Workshop PLC Page

GW remains a vertically integrated company, retaining control over every aspect of design, manufacture, distribution and retail of our models and rulebooks.
Games Workshop - the company

Games Workshop UK IS producing and distributing the game.

Specialist Games (Fanatic) can only design the game, production and distribution IS the responsibility of Games Workshop UK.

GW UK is a wholly owned subsidary of GW PLC (as is GW US and other foreign arms of GW), but this is done in the main for financial reasons.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 9:52 pm 
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That settles that ... Thanks, Jimbo !  G/W and Spec/Games are almost the same entity ... :ghostface:

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:21 pm 
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Quote (Jimbo @ 04 2004 Jan.,12:35)
Games Workshop UK IS producing and distributing the game.

According to Jervis Fanatic has their own European distribution system in place and that it is going to be brought to North America  this year or next.

AFAIK (based on what I have been told) Fanatic does its own distribution in Europe (or will RSN) and will at some point do its own distribution in the US/Canada as well.

I'm aware of the fact that GW owns Fanatic (this much is fairly obvious and I would have thought it went without saying) but the company produces games and miniatures using their own resources...not GW's.

Hence the issue of the cost to redo the moulds for the plastic infantry.

Hence the slow release of figs

Hence the lack of new background for EpicA since Fanatic has no writers and no access to GWs writers.

My point wasn't that GW doesn't own Fanatic (I mean really, does that need to be said?) only that it relies on its own internal resources to produce games.

GW owns Fanatic but Fanatic is largely on its own when it comes to making games.

People refer to this as a "GW" game and then get annoyed when Epic appears to not be released and supported in the same manner as 40K or WFB.

Or Primarch's comment about the game lasting six months.  Well the entire point behind Fanatic is to support niche games that would get dropped if GW did them. Which is why this is a Fanatic release and not a GW release.

If people keep referring to it as a GW release they are not only missing the point behind the company but they are going to get an incorrect impression of how the game will be supported.

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Jimbo
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:42 pm 
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What Jervis means is that GW UK will be distributing the game in the UK and Europe. GW UK are already doing this through the GW UK Online Store.

GW UK is responsible for the production of the game and the miniatures. Specialist Games does not have a manufacturing base!

GW Spain, GW Germany, GW France etc... may not be distributing the game.

The confusion arises over the differences between GW PLC and their wholly owned subsidarys such as GW UK, GW US, GW Australia, Forgeworld, etc...

Each subsidary has responsibility to make a profit.

All Specialist Games are GW games by definition, which is why people refer to them in this way.

Specialist Games are NOT core games and as you rightly point out do not have the same level of support that the three core games have nor can it be expected that they will get it.

The other thing to consider is that Epic Armageddon is the FIRST actual release from Specialist Games...

My point was not that Specialist Games is not responsible for the games they produce, my point was that Specialist Games is part of GW PLC and that they rely on GW UK for production and distribution.

Production: the actual manufacture of the games and miniatures, not the design.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:07 pm 
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Quote (Jimbo @ 04 2004 Jan.,13:42)
What Jervis means is that GW UK will be distributing the game in the UK and Europe.

This isn't the impression I got when talking to him about it.

My impression was that a distinct distribution system specifically for SG products was in place (soon to be in place) in Europe due to the difficulties they (SG) had getting their product to stores via the existing GW system.

Since he mentioned this in reply to a specific question from me about why it was so difficult to get SG products if GW distributed them, I took it to mean that GW's current distribution system was not going to be used any longer due to those issues.

What that actually means neither of us could probably say.

Regarding the rest...draw whatever distinctions you want but the fact remains that if people think that Epic or any other SG game or product is going to have the same availability as GW games/products they are mistaken.

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primarch
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:54 pm 
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Hi!

I think Jimbo has summed up these points nicely and are exactly the understanding I have of Fanatic games in relationship to the parent company GW.

Fanatic does NOT have independent manufacturing or distribution capability from GW. Fanatic is a subsidiary, pure and simple and dont "call the shots" in overall production and distribution of their products. They merely "design" games and support them, not produce them.

From a business standpoint it would be sheer folly for GW to have a separate manufacturing and distribution system for fanatic games. The costs in such redundancy would be non-profitable for a subsidiary that accounts for only 5% of GW sales (according to Jervis, IIRC). The reason for Fanatic's resource "poorness" is basically one of demand. They wont get alloted more than the profit they make. Simple business sense.

Thus, Fanatic = GW. They are one and the same, just different arms of one large business. The slowness of release and availability for epic is dependant on GW's manufacturing and distribution allotment for this game, not Fanatics inability to do so. They dont control that part.

Thats why I am careful and to state its a "GW problem", not a fanatic one in regards to marketing and distribution. As for what Jerivs says or not, keep in mind he is neither owner, CEO, regional manager, distribution manager of any GW subsidiary, just head of the fanatic subsidiary which designs and supports games. He doesn't control price, manufacture or distribution of Fanatic games. GW controls that.

While its obvious that the availability and release rate cannot compare to GW's core games, thats a GW corporate decision. The system needs to prove profitability first. IF for some reason epic A proves to be a smash success and rakes in the dough in its first few quarters, then resouce allotment would increase and you'd see more releases and more frequently.

All this aside, I do feel compassion for Jervis's position between what he truely desires to make available for epic and what the marketing, manufacturing and distribution restrictions placed on him will allow. Its a real lose-lose position for him and he doesn't deserve to be in such a position.

But as the adage goes....

....business is business.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:59 pm 
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Hi!

Oh, I forgot. What Jimbo explained about each subsidiary responsible for its own profit is the reason why some carry fanatic games and other dont (or more specifically, could carry some fanatic games and not others) becuase each has made or will make a decision on epic A's profitability and act accordingly.

Primarch

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stormseer
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:16 am 
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...Looking at the online store.. is it just me, or have Hydras and Demolishers really gone up from ?7 to (!!) ?8 for a pack of three??   :o

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:18 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 04 2004 Jan.,14:54)
As for what Jerivs says or not, keep in mind he is neither owner, CEO, regional manager, distribution manager of any GW subsidiary, just head of the fanatic subsidiary which designs and supports games.

Hence my comment about not knowing what that really means :-)

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primarch
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:23 am 
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Hi!

Point taken. Its quite confusing to ask Jervis questions beyond game design. Not too long ago Tom (netepic) asked him about the high epic prices and he was told to ask someone in the finance department about that. I think he tires about being asked questions that are outside his control. I dont blame him one bit though.

If it were up to Jervis and fanatic, epic A would get a "core game" release and support. But I think GW marketing and distribution are unduly harsh on 'ol Jervis and tie his hands on what he can offer and how fast it can offer it. But they control the bottomline, like it or not its thier call. :{

At the very least I hope the game meets the minimum sales expectations they have for it. I for one would like all the armies posted on their release schedule to make it to market.

I'd really like a necron army..... :)

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:15 am 
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All I know is that I just got off the phone from GW Oz Mail Order

...and they have high confidence that the chance of me being able to order EA and minis without going overseas maxes out at a whopping 0.5%....     :(

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Jimbo
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:12 am 
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Quote (pixelgeek @ 04 2004 Jan.,22:07)
My impression was that a distinct distribution system specifically for SG products was in place (soon to be in place) in Europe due to the difficulties they (SG) had getting their product to stores via the existing GW system.

Since he mentioned this in reply to a specific question from me about why it was so difficult to get SG products if GW distributed them, I took it to mean that GW's current distribution system was not going to be used any longer due to those issues.

it is actually quite simple really

the current distribution system is based on individual foreign subsidary's (eg GW France) purchasing relevant miniatures and rules from GW UK and then selling them in French GW stores and acting as resellers to independent gaming stores, therefore SG was dependent on GW France to distribute their products (and as indicated in another post if they don't think Epic will sell they will not distribute)

now GW UK will sell direct to foreign independents (and I guess even potentially foreign GW stores) bypassing the current distribution system

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Shadow Hunter
 Post subject: 6mm Marine Scout Sniper Models
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm 
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Haven't read the last few pages, so I maybe totally throwing off the conversation....sorry.

I thought I'd just post to say I've placed my advanced order for the rule book and a blister of wartrukks.

I know the book is on the pricey side (though the 40K rule book and fantasy book are ?25 too) but I am sick of loads of pieces of paper everywhere, and searching through the sheets during a game, and losing the correct order....and on and on.

I dont see me buying much else then though.  I'll wait to see how the Eldar come out.  Although I do intend on getting some Deth Koptas and supastompas....Oh and yes Vanvlak, a landa or four too.  :D
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