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Merge Mechanics

 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Again, I still think it's best to give a simple initiative penalty a try first before any other more complicated ideas are put forward. All of the varient lists have been using this idea successfully for the last couple of years.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:06 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Again, I still think it's best to give a simple initiative penalty a try first before any other more complicated ideas are put forward. All of the varient lists have been using this idea successfully for the last couple of years.


Correct. Blood Angels and World Eaters are two examples of development that saw instinctive behaviour removed in favour of an initiative penalty. The history of such development is there, so in line with what E&C and Mr Z are saying, probably best to learn from previous developments?

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Sorry E+C I don't understand exactly what you mean and the reasons for it :-\

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:33 am 
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jaldon454 wrote:
Sorry E+C I don't understand exactly what you mean and the reasons for it :-\

For synapse-less formations, you want to do an initiative penalty, and also restrict what orders are allowed to be attempted.

Basically, I think that's overkill, and one of the above would suffice.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:58 am 
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It could be over-kill as you say E+C when one considers that the swarm will also be unable to spawn back their lost units.

I want to fix a problem that I myself am partly responsible for, and I do not know why I didn't catch it earlier on in the process. Basically while the Nid unit stats got knocked down to far more reasonable levels when I first took the list over I then failed to take my own advice at the time. Back then I did state that the Nid command structure reminded me a lot of the Soviet command structure, and then I proceeded to make the Nid list more flexible then it had ever been :o

It is my intention to now reign in this battlefield flexibility to reflect better how I think the army should function. Dumping Merging, limiting spawning to only the orginal units that made up the formation, and giving synapseless formations even less battlefield flexibility, all will get us closer to this goal.

However please keep the insights on what I post coming cause they give me an excellent third person perspective on what I am thinking about rule wise, and I appreciate it.

Cheers,
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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:07 am 
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I do see an issue with only having restoring units to formations with spawning; The dominatrix and especially the Tervigon become a lot less useful as their increased spawning abilities will often not be usable. If you don't know, the Tervigon is a unit found in modern nid lists whose battlefield role is solely to increase spawning. Not only that, but it'll feel even more like necron-style resurrection rather than what spawning is supposed to represent. I understand the reasons for it, but I don't think it's the right choice.


A low initiative rating for synapseless units represents a lack of control and flexibility perfectly well with resorting to special rules and extra limitations. It's elegant, something rules should also seek to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:05 am 
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I don't mind Neal's option here actually. Bonuses to do things "instinctual" rather than penalties to do things that aren't. Carrot before stick as it were.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:08 am 
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The dominatrix and especially the Tervigon become a lot less useful as their increased spawning abilities will often not be usable. If you don't know, the Tervigon is a unit found in modern nid lists whose battlefield role is solely to increase spawning.


I digested all three lists over the weekend so I do know what the Tervigon is, and if it wasn't for the ideas I have for them I would agree with you. At present I am still debating them in my own head as to how I want them to work, so posting them right now would be pointless as I haven't even decided yet.

As to the Initiative Penalty, more and more I keep feeling a small inititave penalty combined with limited order selection will produce the results of limited flexibility I want to achieve for them. Both the mechanic for implimentation and the wording of the rule would be simple and easy. It will not hurt it to give it a try.

As to the Necron System, while there is some truth in what you say it isn't going to be exactly like the Necron system either. Spawning will happen in the end phase with the Nids not having to expend any actions to do so, thus the Nids will be able to continue to advance as befits their background. The Necrons must expend an action to bring back units and forfiet the ability to remove BMs when they do it. The effect on the gaming table will use a similar mechanic but produce vastly different results.

Cheers,
Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:27 am 
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It's not that the mechanic feels too necrony to me, it's that it is a mechanic that very definitely represents the same creatures coming back to life rather than a growing horde of bugs. I already have problems with 9.2.1 feeling too much like resurrection, but this just makes it nothing but resurrection. I really don't see how this change improves the list, it just doesn't have the right "feel" for what spawning is meant to represent. The mechanic is perfect for necrons where it does represent the dead coming back to life, but here it's supposed to represent lost and wild individual nids coming into synapse range and joining the attack, and it just doesn't represent that well.

With regards to the initiative penalty, something like Neal suggested would make it almost impossible for the nids to do something like doubling or other unlikely activations, but without completely banning them. You could still have that hail-mary-pass 5+ or 6+ activation if you absolutely needed to get them somewhere. I'm just not a fan of banning particular orders, it's a nasty precident to set.

Like you say, we can try it, but I really think trying the basic initiative penalty first is the way to go. If that is found to be not 'niddy enough, then we can try something more complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:08 am 
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So, by instinct, the Nids will behave completely appropriately one time in six or one time in three?

I'd say that limited orders plus some degree of initiative penalty (-1 or -2) would be appropriate for leaderless Nids. Personally, I'd limit it to just Hold and Engage - if there's nothing obvious to do, they mostly mill about.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:15 am 
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A synapse-less formation could adopt the 'Blood Rage' rule (Blood Angels and World Eaters) or whatever it became after the fact. You could even increase the difficulty to -2 initiative if required and rename it.

It would save a lot of this back and forth and also adopt (and therefiore strengthen) a rule that two sub ACs have already come to an agreement on.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:59 am 
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Here is the idea for Instinctive that I think may work:

-------------------------------
Instinctive
[insert relevant fluffy text here]

If A synapse-less brood formation that has at least one unit that can reach base contact with an enemy decides to
perform any other action other than an Engage, they will receive a -2 modifier to their initiative roll.

-------------------------------

Simple and elegant - well I think so anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:06 am 
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It works, but what about those that can't reach base contact? They act normally?

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:35 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
It works, but what about those that can't reach base contact? They act normally?


Hmm... re-worded for simplification:
-------------------------------
Instinctive
[insert relevant fluffy text here]

A synpase-less brood formation has a -2 penalty to perform any action other than an Engage action.

-------------------------------

That's pretty simple. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:28 am 
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Instinctive
[insert relevant fluffy text here]

A synpase-less brood formation has a -2 penalty to perform any action other than an Engage. It can only perform an Engage action if at least one unit can and will move within base contact of an enemy unit.


As for spawning: I see Tervigons and Donimatrices as the only "spawning"-creatures being able to push a Swarm above it's starting number of units. But only with units previoulsy purchased for a "Spawnign Pool" (as in Daemon Pool).

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