Just to clarify, I assume you meant mechanized Infantry.

Morgan Vening

Only if the bombers get through
In order to use the template they have to be within 15cm of the target risking ground AA, and as I have suggested if the opponent has fighters on CAP, the Bombers are likely to lose an A/c. This reduces their firepower to 6 targets at 6+ for the barrage, plus 4 AT4+ hits and 2 AP5+ or 3.6 hits Vs 3, not to mention reducing the chances of them returning the following turn to 50% at best.


Not sure I would agree there either. The Void Spinner still fires at full power if hit, and I have found it to be quite a tough nut if lurking behind cover with 4x Rangers screening it, especially if there is also another formation in reserve, supporting against air assaults.
Now that may well add up to 500+pts, but it also represents three activations that have multiple strategic options against the single activation and two tactical options for the bombers - which also cannot take or contest objectives.

Well, I suppose there is more than just the language that separates the US and the UK. Queue the Phoenix Bomber flying across the screen.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I think you're biasing this comparison pretty heavily. The Phoenixes have lots of defensive options you aren't considering.

Eldar have a ton of deepstrike options that can seriously hinder enemy ground AA. You might make the case this is additional resources committed to making Phoenixes work, but much of the time the AA formations will be fairly high-priority targets anyway, e.g. the ubiquitous SM formation of Tacs + SC + Hunter. This will change the priority somewhat but it will usually not represent a major shift in strategy or expenditure of points.

The Eldar Phoenixes don't need the template to compete in firepower. If enemy AA is too thick, the bombers can always hang back and use their ranged weapons. An oblique attack run and fighter status on the disengage move makes it pretty easy to avoid ground flak. At the worst case 45cm range, 6xAT4 is the same number of hits you're likely to get from the Voidspinner and allows the Phoenixes to stay out of ground AA while biding their time for a juicier target once the environment is more forgiving.

Eldar have crazy fast flak of their own that virtually always moves forward in the battlefield, providing a substantial AA umbrella. Between the range on the Phoenixes and the ubiquitous flak units on the Eldar side, it is easy for them to stay under the Eldar's own AA umbrella. Like the deepstrike considerations, you could make the case that these represent more points invested in making the Phoenixes work but that's pretty thin. Titans and Falcons/Firestorms are very common in Eldar armies without Phoenixes and Phoenixes taking advantage of them requires no changes in their use. It is synergistic and basically "free" in terms of points.

Winning the strategy roll allows the Phoenixes a non-CAPed bombing run, with the Eldar having the ability to move flak up afterward to gain the same protections against later Intercept actions. Even if they don't do so immediately, the need to get Intercepts in before the Eldar cover the bombers with flak changes the priority of activations for the enemy. There's some of that with any early activation as the enemy will be moving up to support/counterattack, but this aircraft/flak situation is more of an intense need than most on-ground situations.

And, of course, there is always the possibility that the opponent has made a strategic choice to go light on AA defense while there is no chance that the opponent has gone light on things that can kill ground units like the Voidspinner.


The Phoenixes may still not be worth 400 points, but I just don't believe it's a no-brainer.

Whilst arguing on slightly different lines we do seem to agree on the way to use the PPBombers, and that they require other formations in order to make the best use of their strengths. However it is the presence of these additional formations that compete with the PBombers for the deep strike and AT niches in the list; "you say Potatoes I say Tomatoes"

Ultimately they are unquestionably good, but we both suggest they may not be '400pts good'. And it is the cost that makes PBombers a secondary or even tertiary choice in most lists.
It is worth noting that the Eldar list as a whole tends to work better at 4000 points, and that PBombers are much more viable in a 4K list because the extra points provide the additional synergistic formations (Eg Phantom and PBombers paving the way for the rest of the army to follow and consolidate upon)

However, I would contend that even at 300pts they would not be an automatic choice:-

• Their AA is only mediocre - at the level of Ork Fighta Bombas. Night Wings are far better in the interceptor role
• Night Wings are almost as good as PBombers against AP and AT targets, especially with Lance to take on RA targets, though a little less resilient***
• In a 3K list, taking the PBombers precludes the use of any titans (1/3 list rule). Indeed Eldar are effectively forced to choose between titans or air unlike other lists
• As noted earlier, the +1 on CAP etc has reduced the effectiveness of air assaults and increased the desirability of fighters; reducing the desirability of the PBombers in favour of Night Wings

***5+RA is 1/9 better than 4+, though the ability to jink does make the PBombers tougher when disengaging