Firstly, to frame the discussion, most lists contain a fighter and bomber aircraft formation, eg. Thunderbolts (150pt for two) and Marauders (250pt for two) for Imperial Guard or Nightwings (300pt for three) and Phoneix Bombers (400pt for three).

Secondly, this discussion is in the context of the UK Epic tournaments, though any thoughts outside that are welcome.

I'm not sure bombers are ever worth the points for several reasons:
1) Since you cannot CAP a CAP, there is no way to actually protect your bombers with fighters
2) The rules review, giving intercepting and CAP aircraft a +1 to hit, making shooting down bombers easier
3) The damage output from bombers seems marginally greater than fighters (typically the bombers have a BP based weapon)
4) Better efficiency of ground based flak units for protecting the targets a fighter formation would ignore, but a bomber formation really should be attacking.

It seems better in all cases to take the fighter option (or for the IG, two squads of thunderbolts seems strictly better than one squad of marauders).

Given that bombers can only affect the board with their fire power, which is unable to break/destroy an equivalent sized non-scout/raiding formation holding an objective.
A typical aircraft tactic is to pick off lone formations away from flak cover that are holding/contesting an objective, the classic example is thunderbolts sent to attack a space marine landspeeder formation trying to break it. In this role, the fighter again seems better than bombers, in terms of points spent for effectiveness.

Ground based flak is also typically efficient to include, since the units have a good dual purpose (hunters, hydra, obilterators and defilers(AA variants)), attached to the units you'd want to send bombers against - instead of 'sniping' the scout/raiding sized formations.

Obviously, the point costs reflect the character of the game towards ground based units for most armies (space marine thunderhawks being the exception). However, I can't help feel that bombers in particular are too expensive for their actual impact on a game - and I know they were already dropped in price under the review.

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So on to actually trying to use bombers... does it need an air heavy army list?

A first idea of taking two bomber formations and say three fighter formations won't work - as an opposing player with fighters will go on CAP and have a shot at your bombers, you're unable to stop them.
So just take three bomber formations... but I'm not convinced five formations (1/3 point total, fighter formations typically <200pt in most lists) of fighters wouldn't be better (less susceptible to failed activation rolls and can lay five independent blast markers - which is all my aircraft ever seem to do on ground attacks anyway).


Well, I've rambled on... does anyone have any ideas - perhaps even use them, or are bombers just another unit that won't make competitive play.

EUK Marauders flatly suck.
Just don't bother.

NetEA Marauders, with their extra pip of BP per bomber, are ok, but still not stellar.

Phoneix Bombers are pretty neat statwise, but at 400pts are overpriced, and again, aren't worth bothering with (Hopefully EUK will fix that in a few weeks).

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E&C, I am intruiged - the NetERC stats produced by Chroma keep the Phoenix Bomber firmly at 400pts across the board. While I would love them to be cheaper, there does not seem to be a huge urge to reduce them - do you know something I don't?

Not really... it's just, when was the last time you saw anyone take any Phoenix Bombers?

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The thing is, I haven't heard anyone comment on the Phoenix Bombers, good or ill, so they haven't been re-examined at all.

If someone wants to start that discussion, this isn't the location for it.

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Ok, will raise the Phoenix Bomber topic in the Eldar forum.

On this particular topic of how to use bombers, the answer is 'it depends', though usually there are better ways of achieving the same effect.

In essence Bombers can be effective if they can perform their role better than other formations in the army list; but you have already listed a number of reasons why that is not normally the case and especially the 2008 change giving +1 to CAP and Intercept.

Jaldon made an excellent point elsewhere when he pointed out that Bombers and fighters cannot control the ground or contest objectives. At best they can shape youropponents strategy by forcing him to move slower and possibly spreading his forces out.

In a little more detail, the reason why 'Marauders suck' is that in IG8 (or LatD) lists artillery formations are cheaper and can already reach out to hit distant targets at least as effectively without the risk of being shot down on the way in, whilst in Marine lists though a better fit, they are both slightly too expensive and do not really support the various strategies. Equally Eldar Phoenix bombers are quite resilient (5+RA) and pack a punch, but at 400pts they are too expensive to be seriously considered in a 3000pt game (though I have taken them in a 4000pt competiton).

The only exception here is the Black Legion Helltalon, which at 250 pts is better costed and better armed than the Marauder in an army that has no artillery (except the Banlord). Indeed it is almost as good as the Phoenix bomber. Consequently they are taken in the UK tournaments as have done reasonably well.

In terms of use there are essentially two ways of using Bombers:- either get lucky on the strategy role to get them in unopposed, or distract the opponent with ground threats so that he needs to respond to before he puts his fighters on CAP. That said, the +1 for CAP or intercept shooting with their relatively poor armour means they are a bit of a one-shot formation that consequently rarely covers their cost.

In using Phoenix Bombers, my target is wholly based on cost. How much damage can I put out for how much risk? Phoenix Bombers are a 5+ RA so they have excellent survivability. Versus Orks and their mixed formations (or IG for that matter) they are devastating. I would gladly sacrifice a single bomber from the formation if I felt it was going to cripple a formation.

If you are hesitant to chance the flak screen, keep them back as a catch all activation. Have them pick off formations that venture too far off on their own, or prep enemy vanguards with BMs for a follow up ground assault. If neither presents an opportunity, you can always intercept with them (they are Fighter Bombers after all) and better than nothing.

I love Phoenix Bombers. I play them often, although to be honest I usually pick my expensive formations based on what I think looks pretty on that day, so they have to compete with EoVs and Titans.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Thanks for people's thoughts - ideas for use are as I was thinking, sometimes like a one shot to take out a formation.

I know we're not going to re-stat or re-price all the bombers - not now, but meh, perhaps change the aircarft rules - especially the fact that you can't screen bombers from being intercepted (being able to CAP a CAP would do it) - but that's a problem for another day/year.

Despite all my moaning, I've got some bombers painted up - so I'll bring them along to some tournament this year (Open War may be), they'll crash in flames, but that's not the point - they make my themed army.

To be fair, the NetEA Marauders are fine, because both of those have been applied to them.

The EUK Marauders have only been re-priced, and just aren't worth it. (And their extinct status in EUK tourneys bears that assertion out).

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Lots of people houserule this.

Rug: I have tested em plenty however, and those 2bp ones are pants, which makes my opinions warm air, at worst :-p

The value of bombers must always be figured out after fighters have been chosen , too.

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Will elaborate tomorrow as am out gigging for charity today!

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