Well, I really wish I'd gotten some of the comments in the poll thread, oh, say, a year ago.

TRC: What was the devastating army you faced that crushed all and sundry? Can you describe some of the games?

Grot rule: Holy cow! I have no idea how many times I've explicitly asked about this. The vast majority of feedback has been "it may not be needed but it's not overpowered." I've left it mostly out of inertia and because every time I proposed pulling it someone said they really liked it.

I'd like to see a demonstration of how to abuse it. I've been unable to do so and I've not seen any batreps where it was successfully abused.

Speed Boost: If this is so good, why is no one using it in batreps? Extra FF or upgrading Big Gunz to Zzaps is far more common. They way I normally to theoretical points to start testing from, this would be worth ~60 points on a great gargant and ~45 on a gargant.

Landas + Snappas: 2 Dreads + 6 Kanz packs ~3 hits/3MW hits in CC, with 4+/5+ armor saves. That's the same offense as SM Terminators, with about 3/4 the durability and a vastly higher chance of taking casualties for the resolution. It's been tested heavily. Nikodemus played a series of several games with 3-4 Landas, several of which were loaded with Snappa mobz and didn't find them any better than Lootaz/boyz.

Support Mobz: I would definitely consider going to 2 per gargant.

Can the Mek upgrades rule for grot targeters be tweaked so you explicitly cannot create an AA Stompa?

or better still, create an AA stompa. please.

The Grot rule partially negates the big weakness of low activation armies - that is having to abandon stuff as you push forward. The whole enemy bit is neither here nor there as its the same negation if you had a formation holding it. This way you concentrate on stopping the enemy winning (so if they want formations doing that you only block what you need to with the added threat of capturing anything he doesn't move a formation over to). it just makes it a bit easier and really if its so ok why don't all armies have it?

Splitting up the objectives to stop this doesn't help that much as gargants can operate fairly independently as they are so tough. I guess making the power fields only known after being hit for the first time might make this more risky.

The armies that have creamed me have consisted of fast gargants with lighter units like super stompas in support and formations designed to clear blocking formations out of the way of gargants. As pretty much the best way to stop them is sacrifice formations to them. Oh and some WE AA thrown in to confound things. Sticking a bomber into a FB squadron is a good bet as well as they are a good deal for the template, especially against vehicles. And worse come to the worse they can always be a shield for the other units with the higher save.

I guess the core problem has been gargants are pretty much the toughest thing in Epic. You can draw things out to the 4th turn easily enough and if you aren't winning draw. You are packed full of MW barrage weapons which are a nightmare for many armies, if you ignore them and rely ont he poor shooting all it takes is one above average salvo to do away with a prize formation. Then the list has a horde of buffs for them as well. Speed for me is the best as I don't feel the need for extra guns much. And Epic at the end of the day often seems to be about resilient speed. A speed 25cm krawler or my favourite speed 20cm great gargant is deadly. Especially if you can use roads as well. Keeping a grotnought hidden behind the We for assaults is good and even better for negating a deathstrike. Stick the little thing in front and the first tk missile or defence laser shot ploughs into that instead. Though of course it’s a choice between them or the speed gargants. If doing without those thoroughbreds I would probably drop a rock on the enemy blitz.

The things that can stuff them is simply having too many formations to deal with before getting anywhere, being unlucky on a 2+ roll to activate as there’s no re-roll and having a low activation count. But because the things are so tough that means in the hands of a cautious player they will draw rather than lose.

Grot Rule: I agree it makes it a bit easier. I'm just not convinced it is abusive. As far as the "if it's okay, why doesn't everyone have it" bit, that's no different than any other army special rule. Hit and Run is okay and could apply to any elite force, but only Eldar have it.


Splitting up the objectives is as much to keep the relatively slow gargants from moving into advantageous positions as it is about isolating them.

On the toughness issue, you do realize that only Gargants and Great Gargants have Thick Rear Armor, right? An isolated kustom gargant, krawla or supastompa can end up in a lot of trouble from crossfire.


Good point. The "1BP weapon, just for a template" effect is not something that was considered. That needs to be moderated in some way.


Why is that useful for assault? It's 5+ armor, not RA. That's far more likely to take damage for resolution than the gargant. They can also become a quick way to rack up BMs. For Gargants and Great Gargants, they put some bite back in being crossfired. The only thing I use them for is to soak multi-TK hits.

Honestly, I almost think Grotnoughts could come out of the list. They're slightly weaker stompas with a few advantages as WE meatshields. Overall, they don't do much. I just really liked the flavor of them.

Uhm??

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Good idea. That hadn't occurred to me.

Whoops. Sorry. You're right. None of them have TRA.

Neither the rulebook Gargant nor Great Gargant have Thick Rear Armour.

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S'alright we all get brain moments when we get old. :-P

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I can only think TRC means keep the grotnaught at the front to soak up any TK attacks first as has been stated,then when making an assault, move the Grotnaught behind the Gargant so it is invulnerable to taking hits on its weaker armour (WE blocking LofS etc.).

So, if we do this:

1) Delete Grot Attack.
2) Cut support formations to 2 per Gargant.

Will that take care of most of the issues? It will push a lower activation count and make it more important in terms of objectives.

Is removing the discount for Gargants and Great Gargants also needed? I'm dubious because the army lists rarely feature them aside from the obligatory GG supreme commander.

I'm hesitant to take out the Grotnoughts because I just think they are fun. However, given the overlap with Stompas (in terms of both models and abilities) and the potential WE-tricks of the Grotnoughts, I'm still open to it.

Grotnoughts can always get moved across to Sun-Tzork's Grotling Waaagh list, heh.

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I just want to note that there was an OGBM army in our Tourney last weekend
I didn't play against them but i will ask the players of their experience with them.
Out of my hread it had 2 Great Gargants, 1 Drop Rokk, a spaceship, some Fighte-bommers and a big mob of Stompas, Kans, etc (yes only 4-5 activations).

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Hey, I was just looking at the OGMB list ... Don't see what and how many a Krawla can carry ?

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