E&C

That looks like a titanium-alloy to me.

madmagician

Actually, have you looked at the list in this thread? It features larger Space Marine formations, Tarantulas and that sort of thing, and might evoke more of the feel of Marines you're used to.

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SK, I have and I love it, my only concern would be going up against an air or teleport heavy opponent. Any suggestions for counters in this list?

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MadMagician
Epic Tyranids

Die like a Space Marine?

Air - the traditional mainstay Hunter remains a good choice. Don't skimp on them if you're worried about air. And, of course, there's the CAS or Bomber Thunderhawk variants. Otherwise...yeah, you're vulnerable. Which is not inappropriate - SM aren't renowned for their aerospace capabilities.

Teleport - honestly, your guess is as good as mine on this.

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With SM's SR5, you should have a good chance of acting first, whether that's attacking a teleport formation or setting up to defend.

The list has some relatively cheap firepower options for some stout OW. Garrison formations on OW, if possible, to amplify your "act first" advantages.

SK

I do have some ideas to post up. I will get back to this list when I finish up everything else I need to do (I slept longer than I should have)

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Now that I am back...

As our discussion on ICQ, an idea to promote more troops was to remove the transports and making them an upgrade. Hence pricing the formations down much like you have with the terminators. If you wish to 'foot-slog' then you pay 250 points for Tacticals (and they can garrison!) or you pay the +25 points and run them around with Rhinos. Same for the Devs. It will help promote these two formations a little more I feel.

You can then boost up (or create) the cost of the lost transports to the items that supposedly take then into account, so transport Thunderhawks go up by 25 points, and Drop Pods become an upgrade for +25 points.

The issue I see then are the Land Raiders - yet if you do not have an issue with 75 point Land Raiders, then no issue really.

I do prefer the Vindicators over the Predators on initial viewing, however that extra move or the extra FF (destructor) may be useful - I doubt it however

The Armoury - meh. I would open this up to player choice. If one weapon is deficient, then that is an issue with the weapon itself. We should not force the players to take the bad with the good. As an example, on that type of thinking, why not restrict the Predator choice to 2 and 2? Same thing. If you do not do it with Predators (as you have the upgrade), do not do it with the Armoury. I would say the same for the Dreadnoughts as well. If one type is crap for what I need it to do, then I do not want it.

Bikes - Why not allow up to two or three units to exchange their bikes for an attack bike? Look at the Chaos Squat list (which I am currently updating as well) for an example of what I mean.

1 Predator upgrade for +75 points? No chance

Three Vindicators vs two Predators for 150 points. Hmmm. I get an extra defence of +2BM with the Vindicators and an extra FF. Yep, I would still take the Vindicators ofver the Prededator selection. Not your fault that Pradators are crap in comparison.

Demi Company - I do like this and the Assault troops allow for that 10cm counter-charge which will be handy on the defence. If you adopt the removal of the transport idea above, then make sure to change the Devastator transport in this to optional. I am not sure about adding both for +175 points however. You take Devs from being a 4 man formation to 8 and if they all have vehicles, then that makes them from 6 to 11. As they have ATSKNF, it then gets into the "well that is really unfair" type of area - for me at least. I guess I am a guy that does not like seeing Marines number into the double digits for a formation - regardless of what other lists allow.

Land Raider Terminus: Is this too expensive? It is 1 unit right?

Razorbacks: why the jump at a purchase of three?

Tarantulas: Restrictions. Nooooo!


Overall, if you do make a Transport Upgrade, you could consolidate the Razorback, Land Raider, and additional Rhinos and Drop Pods into the one upgrade.

I hope all the above helps dude. Otherwise looking good

Cheers...

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Frogbear



I think I've decided to leave them as-is for the moment. I wish I had a good reason for you, but I don't. I think I want to see how events play out with the list for a while, then decide what to do about Devastators.



No help for it, sadly. 200 point Predators is clearly too cheap, 250 point Vindicators is clearly too much.



The reason the Armory's restricted is that I want to keep Tarantulas from being too good. A specialized formation of Tarantulas is useful in a way the generalist formation isn't, and may be used in ways a generalist formation isn't. Tarantulas aren't supposed to be a specialized formation - they're supposed to be general-purpose defensive emplacements that can be left with minimal supervision to hold ground safely. They're expendable tools used to hold ground - if they could specialize, I think there might be a serious temptation to try to use them in a more offensive role - or to fill out weaknesses in the list beyond lack of numbers. I don't want swarms of Tarantulas taken for their anti-tank abilities and used to swarm enemy armor to death.



Honestly, if I had my way, there wouldn't be an Attack Bike at all. Eight bikes and an attack bike is the Codex formation, and thus including that is only a little onerous. But they don't add enough to be worth an upgrade. I'll switch the formation back to any combination, though.



I know, but 50's too cheap. And if I go to increment-ten, I'm going all increment ten, so I'd rather not do that if possible.



I actually am going to reduce the number of tanks which can be taken. This army shouldn't be more armor-specialist than the Scions.



Demi-Company's only for Tacticals.

The Black Templar list allows a formation of twelve infantry (and six Rhinos) for 450 (and 25 of that is higher-cost Tacticals). The Apocrypha equivalent (ten infantry and four Rhinos) would currently cost 450 as well (and that's including 25 points for cheaper Tacticals). It would be more effective at some things, and somewhat more durable, but more vulnerable to losing Rhinos (and thus being slowed) and is smaller overall. It also can't take the ludicrous number of Razorbacks the Black Templars can. I think what I'm going to do is reduce the cost of both Assaults and Devastators, but eliminate the cost-break for taking both. That would make the Apocrypha cost 425, which is good, but not quite so good that it's obligatory.



Just the one. I'm going to reduce it back to 100. Anything above 75 is getting pricey for a SM upgrade, and is definitely pricey for a single unit. Plus, if you think about it, a Land Raider is worth around eighty-five points as an upgrade. This adds a Predator Annihilator's firepower in exchange for the transport capacity and heavy bolters. That's clearly better, but I don't think it's quite forty points worth of better.



Because an odd number of Razorbacks is more useful than an even number, and Razorbacks are worth more than 25 points each.

Seriously. I know I'd still take them.

Thanks for looking it over, man.

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Updated to add 1.0g, which is a fairly minor revision to 1.0f.

Armoury formation to 150
Demi-Company Devastators to 100
Demi-Company Assault to 50
Demi-Company 'Both' removed
Land Raider Terminus to 100
Armoured Support reduced to two vehicles and prices brought closer to the Scions of Iron
Dreadnought formation to 225
Terminators back to 325 (I want to keep Thunderhawking with them a little pricier - if deploying them on the ground with cheaper Land Raiders, a 25 point discount, and Promethii still isn't viable, then I guess it's not meant to be. Worse comes to worse, I'd make a dedicated formation)
Teleport back to 25
Bike formation now any combination of Attack Bikes or Bikes

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Had a thought after looking at one of L4's TOEs - have you considered including the Sabre Tank Hunter in the list as an alternative to the LR Terminus? It's an older unit, easy to convert and might be more acceptable to people who think the Terminus is a little goofy?

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AoC:

I shall respond, as in our ICQ chatting.

Tacticals: Admittedly, they can get pretty damn big - why, for only 700 points, you can get 6 Tacs, 2 Assault, 2 Devs and 2 Pred Destructors, 3 Rhinos, a Hunter and 3 Razorbacks - a total of 19 units moving at 30cm. Of course, the Black Templars can get 6 Tacs, 6 Neophytes and 3 Rhinos, 7 Razorbacks and a Hunter (23) for the same price - and can go up another 5 Razorbacks beyond that if they're prepared to spend the points, as well as tacking on Land Raiders. The AoS will be somewhat tougher, but the BT can handle losses slightly better, have more raw numbers, and can get a lot more depth in their transport (and can also get much larger if they're willing to pay for it).

It may well be somewhat undercosted. But I think it bears some consideration as-is.

Tarantulas: If it's player choice, the formation can specialize. A specialized Tarantula formation gets a lot more useful, very quickly. They're supposed to be second-line garrison ground-holding formations, not the best source of anti-tank in the list. They're used to hold ground generally and to make up for a lack of bodies, not to make up for a lack of particular weapons.

In regard to Tarantulas plus Dreads: Let's look at it this way: when would you not want a Hunter in with your main body? Answer: you wouldn't. There's virtually no circumstance where it's not useful to have the Hunter along. When would you not want a Dreadnought? Any time you actually want to maneuver. There are situations where assigning Dreadnoughts to those other formations is not practical, and it seems logical that under those circumstances the Dreadnoughts would hang about with the Armoury's other toys, rather than sitting on the ship doing nothing.

Bikes and Armoured Support: the two units have similar speeds and abilities at movement, and their abilities complement each other decently. There's no reason they wouldn't be used together in some circumstances.

* * *

Ares

The Sabre Tank Hunter is armed with a (drumroll, please)....

Autocannon.

Not exactly up to the task of tank-hunting, let alone the task of War Engine-hunting.

It should be good. It isn't.

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From what I gathered, it can also mount a vanquisher or a laser destroyer. The autocannon armament is a hold over form the old days of game design, when GW hadn't yet thought up some of the cooler new weapons, an an autocannon was considered pretty hot stuff for a Rhino based assault tank... I'm just saying, it could be good.

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Where'd you gather this from, out of curiousity? I mean, I might not include it in this, but a useful Sabre would definitely find its way into my eventual Horus Heresy list.

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I may have missed the point but why are your tacticals cheaper than Codex or anyone else? Also can I ask why your terminators are 50 points cheaper by removing the teleport (to buy later)? I was told that Wolf Guard shouldn't be 300 points even without teleport.