I'm looking for a timing on when the following sentence from 4.2.5 gets applied.


The core of the question is can the transport a/c be allocated hack down hits or is it destroyed in addition to any hack down hits scored (which is how I play it).

We always destroy the aircraft, then apply hackdown hits.
It seems fairest / inline with the RAI that way.

There's no official ruling on it AFAIK.

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I guess it would hinge on wether or not hackdown hits are applied prior to retreating. The intention of the rule was as I understood that as the aircraft couldn't retreat it was destroyed and was done to ensure cunning people didn't keep it outside of 15cm from the combat (I think).

If hits are first then running you could if it was the closest unit. Then again if you were using fearless in there that is a precondition that prevents hack down hits being applied to them - would this be a similar precondition?

Applying hackdown hits to something that you know is about to be removed anyway is gamey. Remove it first.

Meph, it is obscure, but I think the timing is in the rules

During the assault process, Hackdown hits are applied as part of the assault resolution process in 1.12.7 when the result of the assault is determined. The losing formation is only declared broken in 1.12.8 where it is then required to withdraw.

The bit you quoted from 4.2.7 air assaults reinforces 1.13.3 (third para)

So, I suggest that the air transport is a legitimate target for hackdown hits, though it is only likely to receive hackdown hits if it is closest to the enemy, as they are applied front-to-back.

P.S.
I would also suggest that, contrary to 1.13.3, 4.2.7 results in the destruction of a non-fearless air transport even if it is now outside 15 cm of enemy units (following the principle that where there is a conflict, later rules supercede earlier ones).

This, really.

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Ginger, I agree that's one possible interpretation of the 4.2.5 sentence. However does that mean you believe that thunderhawks losing an engagement with no enemy models in 15cm (a distinct possibility) shouldn't be destroyed?

I read it as once the dice have determined a winner and loser any a/c on the losing side are destroyed. This is step 1.12.7, then move onto step 1.12.8 withdrawals and hack downs. So the flyer isn't a valid target as it has already been destroyed.

I thought I suggested that THawks losing an assault always get destroyed per 4.2.5

On the timing, hackdowns are applied in 1.12.7 (third para), while the formation is only declared 'broken' after the assault is resolved. Here is the first para of 1.12.8 Withdrawals

You are correct Ginger, forgot to look at the errata for any changes! So the hack downs are part of 1.12.7 muddies the water even more.

Was there a ruling on whether or not hack-down hits can be applied to daemons when they loose an assault? I would think the same would apply.

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Hackdown hits due to assault resolution occur in the "work out result" stage, 1.12.7.

Units become broken in 1.12.8, as does the "wipeout" effect of a broken formation losing an assault.

Withdrawal comes after the broken wipeout, if applicable, obviously.

==

All the "auto-kill" effects either state explicitly or strongly imply that the effect comes AFTER resolution. Broken formations are explicitly after, as above. Daemons are destroyed when they break - 1.12.8, after hackdowns. Aircraft implies that the auto-kill is related to the withdrawal, which is actually the second step after hackdowns: "If the aircraft loses the assault it is destroyed, but any units that have disembarked may withdraw normally."

Even if it's not 100% clear in the case of aircraft, all the auto-kills really should be after the resolution hits just for simplicity's sake - everything else is.


As far as "gamey-ness" I don't really see this as a problem. Hackdowns are front to back with the only choice being when 2 or more units are in base contact. It's no more gamey than any other "defender chooses" allocation, like the base contact hits the defender allocated earlier in the assault.

I can't say that I've ever felt robbed or felt bad for allocating resolution hackdowns to units that were going to be auto-killed. In my experience most people tend to lead with aircraft as much as possible in an air assault because the aircraft has better saves than the assaulting units. If the aircraft is out there like that, it ought to be the first to take hackdown hits. It bothers me none at all.

Okay, well I guess my Aircraft will be taking hackdown hits from now on, yay, my Marines just got better. :-)

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Only if it is closer to the enemy than your troops however. Front to back remember...

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Of course; Ya think I don't know the rules or something?

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