It was nothing particular. These things should not move as INF does. All game they stayed on a hill. That was fine. I am taking about their use in general.

Just because we do not see the relevant AC or that AC does nothing to support or change a list does not mean that the list or units are correct and have no issues.

I could run off a list of items for all the official lists that have issues. With no chance of them ever being changed however, I don't bother. That's why my attention is placed to development lists. Getting it right in those lists will invariably place pressure on the 'official' lists to perhaps follow suit in the long run.

At the end of the day, it is the game play that is important. Play with whatever rules you want I say - just as long as you are having fun.

For me personally, I like a little realism - and that means these Support Weapons do not traverse dangerous terrain with the same ease as normal INF. This is the go regardless of whether I am the player or opponent.

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Questions for the community. Answers would be very much appreciated. At the moment, I have some text to revise, an overdue correction to make, and a typo to fix, but if there's anything else that seems to need doing, I'd like to get it all done at once.

Do the points costs for Tactical, Assault, and Devastator formations seem reasonable? Would Tacticals be better at 275? How about the prices for Demi-Companies?

Should Support Weapons and Artillery Pieces remain generic, or are they better off as specific unit entries? As generics, they're more flexible and less obtrusive, but should a later list (such as the Imperial Fists) want to use Tarantulas or Rapiers or the like it'd be somewhat inconsistent.

Does the Damocles interest anyone other than me?

What about the poor Thunderfire? Is it overcosted? Is it worth preserving in the list, due to its combination of cost, lack of model, low speed, and lack of transportability?

Are there any other concerns with the list which really stick out to people? Any points costs, rules, or unit combinations which seem potentially hazardous?

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I'm new to this edition, so I can only give a gut instinct reaction, but I like the updated feel of the list. Seeing new items like Thunderfires and the Damocles (a personal favourite of mine) etc. make an appearance is great for people like me who want to model their 40k army in 6mm scale.

In short, I'll hope to give some more constructive feedback in the future after some playtesting, but on the face of things, I like your design philosophy.

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Right. 1.0d is up.



Play Version (Mediafire)
Full Version (Mediafire)

As always, the Full version is the one with the background. Anyone who likes really long IAs and purple unit descriptions is advised to download it immediately!

Changelist:
1.0c->1.0d
Tactical Squad cost to 275
Assault Marines lose Dreadnought option (what were they going to do with it?)
Devastator cost to 250
Scouts lose Razorback option
Heavy Support option is now Fire Support. Lost Hunter option, gained Support Weapons option.
Demi-Company costs revised
Fixed typo in Attack Bike unit entry, removed Scout from Land Speeder Storm, and revised the wording of the Support Weapons entry.

This'll be the last update for a while. I'm fairly confident in most of these changes, and the ones I'm not confident in other people are. That, and I think it's time the list breathed for a while.

I hope none of you were foolish enough to believe the above. I was.

EDIT: And thanks for the kind words, Apologist.

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just curious of one thing really, Why did you remove scout from the land speeder storms?

I wondered that even if the scouts had "scout" but the storms did not,, how are the storms supposed to deposit the unit of scouts 10cm away from each other. Usually with a scouting unit i rarely keep them within 5 cm of each other.
Or, do the LS Storms get "scout" because of the scouts riding in their battle taxi?
Just a question and not criticizing the removal.

Fairly straight forward, the LS Storm moves, drops off 1 scout unit, moves a bit more, and drops off the second.

I took off Scout because, well, the NetEA LS Storm lacks it (apparently because it was found to be a bit too powerful when the Raven Guard list first used it). In short, it's so I'm using the same LS Storm as everyone else.

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Thanks for doing this SK.

It's a thankless job most of the time.

Keep up the great work. Cheers...

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I don't like the cost changes to Tactical and Devastator. As an opponent more than a player, I never had an issue with them. And as a player, I'd rather take Codex Marines and all the advantages I get there. That you've completely removed the base Thunderhawk makes them even less desirable. (You might also want to remove the Thunderhawk clause from 1.1.1.2, as it might make people think it's still there).

Heavy Support seems woefully undercosted, especially on the upgrade. Double the size of a Garrisoned Dev Squad, adding in 4xAT4+, for 75pts? Absolute bargain. Even as a formation, it's still huge. Especially non-Mounted/LV.

Fire Support seems a bit too cheap as well. 6 Thudd Guns for 225 (if I've got the build rules right). I use them in an alternate list for the same numbers/cost, at 2+ Initiative, SR3, and with Mounted, and they're still a great buy. But the 10 unit formation for 350 is very bad, IMO. Stick them garrisoned forward, in Ruins/Buildings, they're gonna be next to impossible to suppress, capable of hitting the opponent's DZ, and likely able to fire first (SR5).

I still thing Terminators are too highly priced without Teleport. The nominal 50pts is a huge increase in tactical effectiveness. Making it 275/75 is better. Making it 250/100 wouldn't be ridiculous, but probably not as needed.

Morgan Vening

Replies to both frogbear and Morgan. Also a note at the end which I think is worth reading regarding the costs of various units.

frogbear:


Not a problem. Just wish I didn't feel like I'm running in circles. Of course, if I want to stop feeling that way, I probably should stop doing it.

* * *

Morgan Vening:

I expected a variety of reactions. Yours wasn't one of them.



Your comment prompted me to throw up my hands and go look at the Black Legion, who are the most impartial source we're likely to find for what Marines are worth before ATSKNF, Thunderhawks and Transport are taken into consideration. My thoughts on that whole thing are at the end.



If by 'might' you mean 'do', then you're quite correct. Well spotted.



They're like Razorbacks, but much less mobile. Perhaps a little cheaper than they should be, but...

Also remember: 10cm move.



You don't. It's +50 per pair. Which is what I should have put in the first place, mind you.



Well, it's ten units for 475, but I think your point still stands.

Honestly, I'm seriously reconsidering the prescence of the artillery unit. It's annoying me to death by being difficult to fit in the list elegantly, it's rather slow, which is out-of-keeping with most other elements of the list, and it'd be a natural fit in an Imperial Fists Siege list, which I think I'd like to help TRC with should he ever reappear (or want my help ). The Thunderfire's got much the same problems.



I'm not sure you're wrong. Le sigh.

* * *
General Information:

Notes on Black Legion Costing, and thus AoS Costing:

I decided to look at what Black Legion prices are at (roughly), since the Black Legion is a little muddier than the normal Marine list (i.e. no one thought that ground formations should pay for the ability to ride in a Thunderhawk, if only because there're no Thunderhawks).

I left Assault Marines/Raptors, Devastators/Havocs, and Tacticals/CSMs out of my considerations, since they're what I'm trying to establish.

Terminators are 65 pts per unit (with Teleport and Lord), which works out to 260 for a 4-unit detachment.
210 v. 300 = 1.42 (both w/o Character)
260 v. 350 = 1.35 (both with Character)

Chaos Predator
50 points v. 68.75 = 1.375

Land Raider
75 v. 100 = 1.33, 75 v. 85 = 1.13

Dreadnoughts
50 v. 50 = 1

Bikes - 300 points (with Lord)
250/8 vs 200/5 = 1.28 (without Lord)
300/8 vs 250/5 = 1.33 (with Lord)

As can be seen, the value of ATSKNF appears to vary rather widely from unit to unit, peaking around 1.42 with Terminators, and at its lowest being completely equivalent (with Dreadnoughts).

I'll thus assume a rate of 1.35. I'll also assume Rhinos are counted as being equivalent in cost - 10 points each.

8 CSM with Lord are 275 points. 225 w/o Lord. This is a rate of 21.875 per unit. EDIT: With Lord, they're 34.38 per unit. :EDIT
4 Havocs are 150 points. 37.5 per unit.
4 Raptors with Lord are 160 points. 110 w/o Lord. 27.5 per unit.
8 Bikes with Lord are 300 points. 250 w/o Lord. 31.25 per unit.

Thus, per unit costs when accounting for ATSKNF should be roughly...
Tacticals = 29.53
EDIT: Tacticals with Commander: 46.41 :EDIT
Devastators = 50.6
Assault = 37.13
Bikes = 42.19

Which means a detachment works out as...
Tactical
6*29.53+3*10 = 207.18
Tactical with Commander
6*46.41+3*10 = 308.46 (which is 258.46 w/o Commander)
Devastator
4*50.6+2*10 = 222.4
Assault
4*37.13 = 148.52
Bikes
5*42.19 = 210.95

Tacticals thus are worth between 210 and 260 points for a unit of 6, Devastators are worth about 225, Assault Marines are worth about 150 and Bikes are worth 210.

Which suggests (rather strongly) that Tacs, Devs and Assault Marines are at least a little overcosted (in the basic Codex and other lists). Especially Tacticals.

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Quite a few people consider the black legion pricings undercosts rather than the marines being overpriced. I wouldn't use them as a baseline for anything.

Doesn't matter so long as they're consistently undercosted. Ratios are nice that way.

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The comparison with Black Legion is interesting, though I feel your missing a few parts of the calculations to make it nearer.

You have the characters at 50 points for both lists personally I'd say the BL ones are only worth 30-35 points .
The SM rhinos get TSKNF too.
Your not including the difference in Strategy ratings.
Your using the old points costs for BL, try it with the new Epic-UK BL list points costs as I believe they are much better balance wise and would be a fairer comparison.

Added a revised comparison for the Tacticals. Didn't bother with the Assault Marines, since I shouldn't compare them anyway due to their reduced FF relative to Raptors. Silly me.



True. However, I've seen ten points used elsewhere as a cost for them (notably in the discussion of whether or not the LR should be 75 points for an upgrade instead of 85). Furthermore, I doubt they pay too much for Rhinos since they're paying the same amount for Drop Pods.

However...

Costs with Rhinos:
8 CSM with Lord, 4 Rhinos - 315 - 39.375
53.63 per unit
318.98 for a Tac unit with Commander
Which is 268.98 for a Tac unit without.

If you assume a Lord is worth 50...
You end up with 268.31. How cool is that?

Devastators
4 Havocs with 2 Rhinos - 170 = 42.5 per
57.375
229.5



Actually, all possible factors which could lead to a difference in prices are automatically accounted for, regardless of whether or not I remember them. This just shows the ratio between the two types of units - it doesn't explain what causes that ratio. It's pretty much idiot-proof.

Which is good, since I had also completely forgotten about the different SRs.



I'd been using the most recent NetEA version I could find. With EpicUK, the only things that change are Terminators (who move to being worth 371 v. 275, which is a ratio of 1.35 exactly) and Raptors (which, in hindsight, I shouldn't have compared anyway, since their stats are different).

EDIT: Actually, Terminators would be 350 v. 225 or 400 v. 275. Which are ratios of 1.56 and 1.45, respectively. Oops.

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I just had a look at the list. Without looking at the rest of the thread, here are my thoughts:

- I have no problem with the Tactical formation at 275. I know some would like 250, however I think 275 is sensible.
- Land Raiders could come down to 325
- Predators could be 250 points
- Vindicators could be 200 points but best to playtest at 225 points
- Fire support should be 200 points IMO

All other units are fine IMO for now. That's just from an initial look.

Sorry, but alot of my time is taken up with a few things at the moment

Cheers.....

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