The only concern I have, is the +1 on Engage with a 2+ Initiative. I never minded the 0+ on Engage actions. A failed Engage (due to BM's) is going to suck for a Tyranid player.

Also, I don't like the exception for Relentless. If it's down to Brood anyway, having a -4 penalty on Engage (2pt difference for non-Synapse, 1pt difference for non-Relentless, and if it's lost all it's Synapse, it's gonna have BM's) is gonna seriously hurt.

Morgan Vening

That's kind of the point though. If you lose all your synapse you're buggered.

Why should Tyranids be exempt from a fundamental Epic Armageddon core mechanic (i.e. putting Blast Markers on the enemy makes it harder for them to activate) that every other army has to contend with?
How will that endear a new (and inherently semi-official) army to new opponents playing it?

With the Synapse-less formation- that's the whole point, yes. A formation solely of lower-rung Brood creatures is about as useful to you as a herd of cats. That's how Tyranids function. Kill the Synapse, the Brood beasts scurry around instinctively- free of your (the player) control.

In wargaming an army is defined as much by it's weaknesses as it's strengths.
If your worried about failed activations take a Supreme Commander (like every other army has to), if your worried about Synapse-less formations being useless protect your Synapse.

Sorry, on rereading my post, I wasn't as clear as I intended. I don't have a problem with the Synapseless being crap. My issue was the exception in the rule. Either attach the +1 Engage/Rally modifier to the Synapse Rule if only Synapse led formations gain it, or change the base initiative to 5+ for Synapseless. Exceptions should be minimalised when writing rules. I only made mention of the -4 penalty, because I don't think it's necessary. Apply Relentless to Synapseless formations anyway, and it's not likely to be a big deal most of the time. Hence, the ability to remove the exception.


I assume you refering to my being for 0+ Init Engage. As long as it's only Engage, I have no problem with it. As long as the other actions aren't close to automatic (2-3+), it shouldn't be difficult to maneuver around tactically. But given a SR of 1, failing on an Engage (given that Tyranids can't do much on Hold) is just a kick in the teeth they just don't need, IMO. Blast Markers should be important, but for non-Engage Actions, which they still need to do. Marching and Doubling (so as not to lose FF opportunities) I have no problem with them failing, and being disruptive to the Hive Mind's strategies.


And the EA Tyranid's weakness has for the most part been doing anything outside of Engaging. Their strength should be Engaging, and with a 1+ base, the ravening horde of tooth and claw is just as likely to sit and scratch themselves as anyone else.

It's no secret I've got problems with the Tyranid list. But them having a 0+ base Engage (modifiable) is not one of them.

Morgan Vening

Ahhh, ok. I get you now. So you'd suggest reducing brood I to 5+ and doing away with the exception in order to make the special rule clearer and less wordy, since the overall effect is the same. I can agree with that.

It's worth noting that on a hold action, Nids can re-spawn gaunts so it's not entirely useless. Personally I think 0+ to engage is too much, and Jeridian makes a valid case for why this is so.

Aside from that though, Morgan, how do you feel about the list, given your problems with the Tac-coms nids list?

Thanks I will give it a try next time we play and update afterwards.

A lot of it depends on pricing, I guess. I note that some of the units are substantially cheaper (Term/Horm 20% cheaper). A lot of that comes out in playtesting.

I haven't fully analysed it, but it seems to fix most of the issues I have with the list. BTS rules are simplified. The spawning rules aren't as simple, but cover most of my issues with the existing rules. While I do like the more free-form purchase nature of 9.2.1, I don't have any issue with the more Orkified purchase list.

But I'm probably not the best person to ask. I'll likely only ever be an opponent of Tyranids. But I'm not immediately predisposed against this list.

Morgan Vening

Does anyone know where Chroma is? I've noticed he's not been on here for a while. Is he on holiday or something?

Anybody got a link for the nid list?

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

http://www.players.tacticalwargames.net/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=125

Copy pasted from Hena's battle report.

I played my first games with my new nids today. I must say I like them alot. I tied my first game against a guard army. Made a couple of really dum mistakes that cost me a win but all in all It was fun. My second game was against a ork gargant army. I won against that army with very little casualties.

I took my Tyranids for a breath of fresh air, fighting against Blood Angels the other week. We used a few small changes to the current list: Warriors for 100, Raveners at CC4+, and had a great game. Tyranids won by 2-1 in 4th (BTS and T-n-H vs Blitz), but could just as well have lost 1-2 in 3rd (BTS vs Blitz and T-n-H). I still believe that the current army list has a very Tyranid feel to it.

My army had:

Hierophant
2 Harridan
2 Genestealer Swarms

Dominatrix
Tyrant + Biovores
Tyrant + Malefactors
Warriors + Winged Tyrant + Haruspex
Ravener Brood
Gargoyle Flock
3.5 Termagaunt Broods
1.5 Hormagaunt Broods

His army was a popcorn list with a lot of bike and speeder formations, a large assault formation with attached speeders and SC, and a couple of war hounds.

Just a few thoughts:
Rallying at 1+ if not broken is a bit over the top, especially since it is very hard to accumulate blast markers on the swarms anyway. I have no problems with +2 to engage, since Tyranid shooting is so poor, but I think the rally bonus could be changed to +1. This would also boost the Zoanthropes Leader ability, since you would occasionally have blast markers.

Synapse is a bit fiddly, but once you get the hang of it, it is OK. As an opponent, you should point out to the Nid player the consequences of over-stretching an assault (especially in Tyrant swarms) as this restricts the Engagement range somewhat.

Warriors as LV does not just impair warriors, but affects the whole swarm. If you run a mixed swarm, taking cover from AV:s expose your Warriors which means that you take a lot more casualties. I use Raveners instead, but I have a hard time considering Warriors without Raveners, or just Warriors with Infantry. This is my main concern with Warriors as LV. Suggestions:

Change Warriors back to Infantry, or
Change the Mobility rule to rule Tyranid LV as INF in every movement and cover aspect.

This would mean that you could protect your Warriors with Assault Spawns and offer Gaunts without a penalty to shooting, which feels much more Tyranid to me.

/Fredmans

I kinda agree with the ravaners, I don't understand why they have a 3+, I do like it but it seems a bit much. I do understand kinda what you are thinking with the ravaners but I would make them CC 4+ and FF 4+ to repressent them having alot of shots as they do in 40k. I think the genestealers should be 3+ though. In 40k they have a WS of 6 which is the high end of most things in 40k, even nobs which have a 3+ CC but in 40k they only have a WS 4. I do know that this is a different game and thats what I like about it, but there should be some kinda resemblence to the latter.

But all in all I do think the list is very solid, would like to see rules for a tervigon or a terranafex.

Maybe this:

Tervigon +50 pts.
Armor 3+ CC 5+ FF 5+
Leader,Fearless

But the real kicker If it is included in a unit spawning it adds +1d6.

Terranafex +50 pts.
Armor 3+ CC 4+ FF 3+
Fearless

FF Extra Attack (+3) ( he can have 20 shots in 40k thats why I figure EA +3 )

Just a couple of ideas. Not that they are needed, but I really like the idea of a tervigon. There are so many -1d6's to spawning there should be a +1d6. just an idea.

For some reason, I have a belief that we should have more than one Nid list.

One would be representative of the minis currently existing for the nids (old school), and another list with an updated view. The two lists would also incorporate the 'nid drop' as an option and not keep this as a seperate list.

Just have them as different 'hives' and hopefully sharing the same rules. That way you will please all players of the nids. Yes it may split playtests, yet if they keep the same rules, it will not matter to any great extent. Then effort can be placed on balancing the units rather than the rules.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats