This game was set to test a few more units in the Emperor's Children army and confirming some concerns before releasing V3.3 of that list.

Emperor's Children Thread: viewtopic.php?f=82&t=18298
Apocrypha of Skaros Thread: viewtopic.php?f=73&t=18326


Date: 10/06/2010

Emperor's Children : 9-10 Activations
- Devastation Class Cruiser
- Decadents + Noise Marines + Dread + Dreadclaws
- Decadents + Noise Marines + Dread + Dreadclaws
- Noise Marine Retinue + Dreadclaws + Daemonic Pact (BTS)
- Slaanesh Daemon Knights x4
- Slaanesh Daemon Knights x4
- Subjugator Titan
- Questor Titan
- Bike Retinue
- Bike Retinue
- Lesser Daemons x6



Apocrypha of Skaros : 11 Activations - doing my best to remember the force
- Tactical + 2x Assault + SC
- Tactical + 2x Assault + Chaplain
- Thunderhawk Gunship
- Devastators
- Assault Troops + Chaplain
- Land Speeders
- Land Raiders
- Whirlwinds
- Vindicators
- Marauder Bombers



The Battlefield



- Thunderfire Cannons

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I forgot to get all the setups, but;
- the Apocrypha set up their Devastators forward on the RHS under Overwatch and their Thunderfire cannons back on their blitz with an Overwatch.
- The Emperor's Children set both Daemon Knight formations forward in craters and on Overwatch.

The first turn was just a process of maneuvering around with the Apocrypha getting lucky to kill some Knights from Overwatch


The mistake was made again by the EC player (me in this case) in moving the knights as I did at the start, however in all fairness, the marine player rolled 3x 6s on 8 dice and I failed 2 of those 4+ and INV saves to have 2 Knights down from the start. After a few more dice rolls, I decided to throw away the blue dice not to be used again. For the rest of the battle I used my Khorne dice (red and bone) to help me throughout the battle.

Another view of that side of the battle


I could not help myself and moved the Subjugator up to the Devastators. Like the rest of the battlefield on the first turn, the Marine's armour was 'tough as nails'.

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Having the Daemon Knights remain on Overwatch appeared to have the Apocrypha quite worried about taking to the middle of the table, so the real battle was fought on the edges of the battlefield


While the bikes and Questor were happy to oblige on the left hand side of the table


The Marines advance against the bike encroachment towards their end



The right hand side however was where the Apocrypha were really winning the battle while the EC player was having alot of trouble making 5+ RA saves on the Subjugator

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Units such as the Assault unit were starting to feel some heat as the EC concentrated on this unit to reduce it's effectiveness in the upcoming Engagements that were planned



The dreadclaws came down and suddenly the Apocrypha of Skaros found 3 formations of EC across the table length of their backline. This drop below threatened the Blitz, Thunderfire formation, the broken whirlwinds and the wounded assault formation hiding in the buildings. Even Marauder bombers could not move them from this essential task



...and why were the Whirlwinds broken? Well the BTS (Noise Marine Retinue) that came down in a Dreadclaw saw to this nicely



On the other side of the table, the third dreadclaw was engaged by the Thunderhawk gunship and Tacticals. After killing off the assault troopers, the combat went to a 2nd round with the scene looking as below (the EC chose not to include the Vindicators as part of the assault with their countercharge and chose a FF combat instead).



After losing 2 units, the Tactical Marines were routed and the Thunderhawk destroyed

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The vindicators did not last long shortly after that:



Whilst the EC were winning various combats, it was leaving them either broken or on the verge of being broken. Scenes such as the below were common and it did not take much for the Apocrypha to start looking in the general direction of a formation and it would instantly becoime broken, or be on the verge of being wiped out to shooting (that formation in the building is routed at this stage)



By the end of the game, the EC were able to take the game to turn 4 and use the remnants of their formations (including Routed ones with the help of Fearless) to cordon off areas to gain the Apocrypha Blitz. The Noise Marines (BTS) just managed to stay alive in the craters to see out the end of the game (thank goodness).


The Apocrypha themselves managed to claim T&H. It went to a countback and the points left on the table were as follows:

- Apocrypha of Skaros: 1350 points
- Emperor's Children: 1050 points

Result: Technical Draw

It was a hard fought battle and quite enjoyable. I will come back with some findings and thoughts that will also lead me to make additions to the list and freeze it as V3.3.

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Findings and Thoughts

Apocrypha of Skaros
I have already placed some observations on the Apocrypha of Skaros in the relevant thread so I will not repeat them here

Emperor's Children
The main weakness of the Emperor's Children (EC) is the formations of 6. Regardless of what they look like on paper, a formation of 6 for an assault army is weak. Where most other armies go with the magical number 8 (whether by troop sizes or special rules such as ATSKNF), the EC lack this fortitude. This is not a bad thing, as it represents Slaanesh as more of a glass hammer than a Juggernaut which captures the fluff well IMO. What it does mean is that the EC need to have a little something extra to assist them. At present this is with Daemonic Pact built into the formations of Decadent retinues.

I will continue this discussion in the EC thread.

- Overall, I find that the EC need a small boost to assist them to play competitively. Otherwise, I am happy with the force design and pricing on most things
- A formation of 4 Daemon Knights is not very robust and will be quickly cut down by 1 or 2 formations firing at them
- The Drop force idea for the EC works well and assists an otherwise fragile force to get into the 'thick of it'.
- Subjugator and Questor Titans are very fragile
- Any reduction in Initiative for any formation in this army will not make it a competitive or playable force. As they have to manage formations on the verge of being broken more so than most other armies (due to the magical 6), they need that +1 extra to activate or rally. I would really like those who disagree to try playing with the force rather than merely making such decisions based purely on what they see on paper.

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Thanks for an interesting report with TWO lists under development. As always, you do a lot of work for the community, something I am sure everyone appreciates.

*blush*

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cool batrep
I had a game against Dave, playing a largely drop force against a White Scars list. Due to a fluffed T1 drop I largely lost the game from the start (1st time playing a drop army) and lost 1-2, but I'd agree on most points - EC are fragile and fairly expensive, especially dropping, and that dropping is one of, if not the, best ways of playing them. To that end, if I took them again I'd take Sonars in drops, with an added demonic pact - 6 CC4 and 1 CCMW4 on first strike, plus x no. of first striking daemons is really nasty, plus the 30cm move makes the most of their limited drop deployment. Didn't think an awful lot of the Subjugator, but the Daemon Knights were very good, for the 1/2 a turn until Dave kept breaking them. Oh, and the aircraft ('blades and 'talons) were seriously good. Perhaps a little undercosted.

Thanks for the update Matt

Sonars in Dreadclaws hey? It is not currently an option as normally jump pack troops cannot take Drop Pods. I will do some research to see if Jump Packs can go in Dreadclaws.

Agree on the Subjugator and Daemon Knights. If anything, I would expect that after a year's freeze, the Subjugator either got a cost decrease, or a boost somewhere. It will be interesting to see the knights played at 6 for 400 points.

Yes and the Hellblades are quite good. There has obviously been alot of discussion just to get them to 225 points. I have not seen them abused yet at those points, so we may not see a change with them, who knows?

Thanks for taking the time to give a response

Regards...

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ah nuts that makes a lot more sense.

hmm, makes things interesting though - sort of like the dichotomy between ground pounder marines and drop/ air assault, but without TSKNF or the air assault bit. With small, relatively expensive fms I can see this army struggling in ground pounder mode.

The strength of the Terminator formation (being 6 as opposed to 4) supported by House Devine coming up the table, it may work. I think I would want the INF to March 1st turn in their Rhinos to make sure there was a game from 2nd turn onwards. I will give it a go in an upcoming game.

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How will you alter the Subjugator without changing the LatD Subjugator too? Apart from the fact that his stats are slighty different to the Wh40k Apocalypse ones.

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I have no idea yet. After a year's testing, I would hope there would be games to show that it should get a small boost (something - not sure what) across both lists. Is it used quite effectively in the LatD at all? From our few games, it is usually the first thing to die and really only gets one measley shot off.

I want to try and use it more strategically to see if I can get it into CC. Currently as it stands, it makes an average Blitz guard, and that's it. It should have a better role that that.

If a change is not warranted, than that is fine. It is just a feeling I have that it needs to be a little bit better, or just cheaper.

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The other important thing to note is my belief on Daemon Engines and the LatD.

IMO LatD do not own the rights to the various Cults Daemon Engines. Yes it may be an official list, yet it appears to be by mistake or time constraints rather than design. At the end of the day, the Cult lists should call the shots on their signature Daemon engines. The LatD should then follow suit - not the other way around.

The fact that in the World Eater list I had to change the name of the Assault Daemon Engines is just one example of how silly the current convention is.

So that is my view regarding how things effect the LatD. I know a minority of vocal hardcore LatD players may disagree, but that is my belief. I am sure I am not alone.

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